God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is usually say things that makes it seem like the other religions don't evolve... that their beliefs and practices were only good for a time gone by. But most all religions do evolve.

No, they do not evolve, they change, and when they change they become a religion of man, no longer a religion of God.

So for example if Christians change the laws if Jesus to accommodate the changing times, it is no longer a religion of God, it is a religion of man.

But has the Baha'i beliefs evolved? I don't think they can. They are set for 1000 years by whatever Baha'u'llah has said.

A Revelation from God is not supposed to evolve, and if it did it would become a religion of man.

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is good for 1000 years from 1863, and any time after that another Messenger will be sent, and religion will continue to evolve. That's how it works.

 

[Trailblazer]

You've never said that the Christian concept of the trinity is not true? You've never said that any religion that believes in multiple Gods is not true? If you haven't you should. You should make it clear that Baha'is do not believe in the trinity, Jesus is not God, and there is only one God, not many.

I will say that if it comes up on conversation. Otherwise I have no reason to bring it up.

Baha'u'llah's writing are so flowery, I would hardly call them "straight" to the point. Shoghi Effendi is too wordy. I like Abdul Baha's writings the best.

Funny you should mention that. That is exactly how I used to feel, and when I first became a Baha'i I read what Abdu'l-Baha wrote almost exclusively. Only much later, within the last eight years, did I start to read and understand what Shoghi Effendi and Baha'u'llah wrote. It is still more difficult to understand them, but it is well worth the effort, because everything that is in the Writings is important to know.

 

[Trailblazer]

What were the needs of the people when Jesus came? Did his message meet those needs? What was that message? How long before that message was lost and corrupted by his followers?

I do not know exactly what those needs were, but I am sure Jesus met them. His message is the gospel message.

I cannot say how long it took for that message to be lost and corrupted, but that started when Paul showed up.

 

[Trailblazer]

falsely claiming that I was expecting.

If there is someone, god or otherwise, who wants me to believe that they exist, but is unwilling to do the things that would convince me, then that someone is either incapable of doing those things, or that someone is a dolt.

#2603 Joe W, Friday at 12:58 PM

I consider that an expectation because you expect God to do the things that would convince you that He exists.

Then I gave you a chance to correct me

You expect God to do the things that would convince you if He is capable. Otherwise you consider God a dolt.
If that is not what you are saying, correct me.

Why should God do the things that would convince you just because God is capable of doing those things?

#2612 Trailblazer, Friday at 1:48 PM

What I did was just and fair. The evidence showing what happened is posted right on this forum. I asked you to correct me twice if I was misconstruing what you said. All you had to do was correct me if I was wrong and answer my question, but instead you deflected and then called me a liar.

 

[Trailblazer]

Apparently you need to go back and read what I posted.


When you want to someone to see that their reasoning is irrational, using that person's way of reasoning from the opposite view usually does the trick.

When atheists cannot respond to what I say calling me irrational usually does the trick.

Since they cannot explain WHY my reasoning is irrational.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your refusal to acknowledge that atheists have not answered your questions does not make your claim about it as being true.

The evidence that those questions were never answered is on this forum, all over the place.

Not all atheists ignore my questions and obfuscate, but certain ones do.
I know full well when my questions are not answered because I keep records.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: I agree that all discussions should be based upon our capacity of understanding, but I would not label people as honest or dishonest, because that is a judgment and a discussion ender.

night912 said: Intellectual dishonesty.

You are accusing me of intellectual dishonesty and the just thing to do is explain why you think I am intellectually dishonest. People should not hurl accusations unless they can back them up with evidence or explanations. That is unjust.

But it is so easy in a forum to just ignore what people ask if you do not want to answer.
You would never get away with that in real life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: I have no goalpost because I have no goals. I just speak honestly about what I believe and people can take it or leave it.

I did not contradict myself because God wants nothing for Himself although God wants things for humans.
That is no different from me saying I do not want a new Mercedes for myself but I want to buy a new Mercedes for my husband.

night912 said: And there goes the goalpost, moving exactly how it was prepped to do.

I said I have no goalpost because I have no goals. Why are you contradicting me? Do you think you know more about my goals than I know? Or do you think I am a liar?

It is at times like this that I am so grateful I am a Baha'i, because I do not have to rely upon myself to know what is right.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[Trailblazer]

There's nothing wrong with agreeing with Joe because you believed for certain that he was correct. Of course it would be a different story if what you said was only part of an attempt at straw manning him, only to have that strawman backfired on you just a couple posts later.

I have no interest in playing your games because I have no interest in winning any arguments.

But I will point out injustices when I see them because that is in accordance with my beliefs.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

It is a dead giveaway that people cannot look at themselves when their posts are all about criticizing other people.
Let me know if you ever want to have a real discussion.

Or maybe you gave up on trying to prove how an Infallible God could use a flawed method of communication?

 

[Aupmanyav]

What Baha'u'llah wrote.
If atheists do not believe God exists, why do they talk about what God should do to prove He exists?
I am not referring to you, I am referring to other atheists who expect God to prove He exists to them personally.

A very nice answer. Your search and proof stops with your Iranian preacher. Is that not myopic?
An equal number of theists ask atheists as to what God should do to prove his existence. There are such topics in the forums. Why blame only the atheists?
Yeah, the other atheists also will not believe in existence of Allah without checking the evidence.

The dawn is coming, but the darkest hour is just before the dawn. Nobody can thwart God's Purpose for humanity.

I have not seen a dawn which has taken longer than this to come. Jesus promised the kingdom of God 2100 years ago.
It will always remain a chimera whatever number of messengers Allah sends. He sent one immediately after the Iranian - An Indian, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

God does want everyone to receive it, but since people have free will, not everyone will accept the message.

We do not open an e-mail unless we are sure of who has sent it. There is no evidence of there being a God and his sending messengers. There have been hundreds of such claims. These messengers and their messages are good only to be sent to trash. These are spam.

 

[Trailblazer]

A very nice answer. Your search and proof stops with your Iranian preacher. Is that not myopic?

You: What evidence can you give for this abrogation, TrailBlazer?
Me: What Baha'u'llah wrote.

If Baha'u'llah was the one who abrogated it would He not be where I would find the evidence of the abrogation.
Of course, I would first have to check out Baha'u'llah and determine if He was a Messenger of God.

An equal number of theists ask atheists as to what God should do to prove his existence. There are such topics in the forums. Why blame only the atheists?

Do you even realize how absurd it is for a humans to be telling an Omnipotent God what He should do?

God tells humans what to do because God is in charge of everything, humans do not tell God what to do.

Yeah, the other atheists also will not believe in existence of Allah without checking the evidence.I have not seen a dawn which has taken longer than this to come. Jesus promised the kingdom of God 2100 years ago.

But Jesus never promised that the Kingdom would come back then and Jesus never promised He would come and build the Kingdom of God. That job was delegated to Baha'u'llah.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It will always remain a chimera whatever number of messengers Allah sends. He sent one immediately after the Iranian - An Indian, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

Everyone is not a Messenger of God just because he makes a claim.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You: What evidence can you give for this abrogation, TrailBlazer?
Me: What Baha'u'llah wrote.
If Baha'u'llah was the one who abrogated it would He not be where I would find the evidence of the abrogation.
Do you even realize how absurd it is for a humans to be telling an Omnipotent God what He should do?
God tells humans what to do because God is in charge of everything, ..

But Jesus never promised that the Kingdom would come back then and Jesus never promised He would come and build the Kingdom of God. That job was delegated to Baha'u'llah.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Everyone is not a Messenger of God just because he makes a claim.

1. Very weak evidence. That is why few have accepted it.
2. Yeah, your evidence will not be anywhere else but what the Iranian preacher and his progeny said.
3. Yeah, it is absurd to ask an imaginary entity to do or expect from him to do this or that.
4. There is no evidence of that except in the religious scriptures. Some Hindu, Buddhist and Jain scriptures deny existence of any God or Goddess.
5. Why do you quote from Bible when you yourself say that one can never know what Jesus said or did not say, and that Bible is corrupted?
6. Yeah, every one who makes such a claim is telling a lie, because God and Allah are born out of human imagination.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

There is evidence but there is no proof.

So give us your evidence. Not someone said he exists, real evidence.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Why SHOULD God do ANY of those things?

I asked: Why should God do the things that would convince you just because God is capable of doing those things?

You still have not answered. Do you even understand what I am asking you?

The reasons god should do those things are in my post.

To prove it exists.
To prove it's not a manmade concept.
If it exists to tell us which one is the right one.
If it exists to tell us which ones are manmade.
If it exists to tell us which messengers are the right ones.

The reasons for "Why" are many. The reasons for why he shouldn't are down to one, he's a manmade concept.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I know that there is a God and I know what God wants because of what Baha'u'llah wrote.

So your proof is Bahaullah said it was so. No evidence here.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I have no such goal. I could not care less what people choose to believe. It is everyone else who has been hounding me for evidence day and night, in case you have not noticed.

You spend hours and hours here on RF trying to convince people Bahaullah is some sort of divine being. That's because you have a goal.

Go spend the time with your cats.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

God wants everyone to believe He exists and receive His message, but only on His terms.

An Omnipotent God does not kowtow to humans, so it is the Messengers or nothing.

It is not a bad way for God because God does not need anyone's belief or for anyone to get His message.
The only losers are the humans who reject God's Messengers and thus fail to get His messages.

God has no wants, you said so.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I am not happy that half of Americans are so bereft of any discernment such that they would vote for a liar who has no character whatsoever. In fact, it scares the hell out of me that such people are in my midst, since I live in this country.

Glad you noticed. Yes indeed, we are moving towards what Baha'u'llah wrote because the Will of God cannot be thwarted, and now the people are starting to fulfill the will of God. My personal life is a mess, but I am happy that the people of this country now have hope for a better future. Everything is unfolding just as Baha'u'llah predicted.

The reason Trump lost was he is the worse possible candidate. If a better Republican candidate had been found with the same policies as Trump he would now be in the White house.

Americans are sick to the back teeth of their industries going to the Third World. Illegal immigration, endless wars, crime, drugs, NK, etc. All failed policies of a political elite who have lost the people they represent.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, that is untrue. It means you accept whatever you determine is true after an independent investigation

God does want everyone to receive it, but since people have free will, not everyone will accept the message.

We have conducted an independent investigation of Baha'is policies and found them to be flawed. So do you want an independent investigation that finds the same thing?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You do not see unity yet, but this is just the very beginning... Biden has not even taken office yet!

But even after he takes office it will be a long hard road towards unity, and Biden even said that in his speech.

The dawn is coming, but the darkest hour is just before the dawn. Nobody can thwart God's Purpose for humanity.

Biden is now President because of god's purpose. So god allow Trump to win last time around?