God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Matthew 24:6 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Predicting wars is very much like predicting the sun will shine.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

The problem is, if you assume a god exists, that the present method of delivering messages is flawed. Very very flawed.

It could be designed by conmen to deceive us. Because it dodges any attempt at proving itself, it leaves it to us to sort out the genuine messenger from the conman, we have to believe the genuine messenger is getting the message and interpreting it to us correctly, it allows conmen to recruit an army of conmen to try to convince us and when we ask how do the messengers get their messages, we're told we wouldn't understand.

The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Good luck with that happening. It will require a completely new species to fulfil this. It's in man's nature to want more than others.

Many can and have changed that nature. Those that do not, or struggle to do so, are weak and need guidance. I personally have benefited greatly by that guidance. The Jones can keep it all.

Sometimes a person has to reach an absolute low, before they start the climb of change.

Maybe that low is required by all, maybe we will all face that low before we realise Materialism is a soul devouring cancer.

So the method of delivering messages is flawed.

Because god intentionally sends messages we can't understand.

Once again you tie yourself in knots.

The method is perfect in design. If a person wishes to know and Love God, the way is open. That is what this life is for, an opportunity to Know and Love God, of one's own choice to do so.

The greatest fear possible is being left to oneself because they are not interested in finding that love, or have a love of things itger than God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

How can you possibly know such a thing? You don't have good evidence for this claim. At the end of the day, the messengers are humans so that shows that God can communicate with humans.

You are free to believe whatever you want to, but I believe that God has conferred upon the Messengers of God a spiritual nature that other humans do not possess, and that is why they alone understand communication from God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

So then why do most of your revealed religions describe God as a person and a personal being who we can know personally and communicate with directly? You're even in conflict with other Bahai's who claim to have been in direct contact with Him.

To my knowledge it is only Christianity that describes God as a person. Baha’is believe God is a personal God, but that does not ne mean God is a person. I know of no Baha’is who claim to have had direct contact with God. That goes against everything we believe about God.

Personal God

While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith

If God is a person He should be able to communicate with us directly, you even believe that you'll be in direct contact with God in the afterlife, so it shows that it is possible.

But God is not a person, and it is not a Baha’i belief that anyone will be in direct contact with God in the afterlife.

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

If God loves you, he shouldn't have to tell you show through third party messengers, He would let you know directly and I'm not ordering anyone around, I'm just saying that logically speaking an all knowing being should know how to communicate directly with humans or being all powerful God should be able to create a way of directly communicating with humans if He doesn't know of one, so you were strawmanning my position and yes it is relevant.

Logically speaking, an All-Knowing God knows more than you do about the best Method of communication.

God does not want to communicate directly to humans, what about that do you NOT understand, and an omnipotent God only does what He wants to do.

You really don’t get it do you, YOU want God to communicate directly to humans, but obviously God does not want to, and that is one reason among many that he doesn’t.

You and others like you think you know more than an All-Knowing and All-Wise God about how He should communicate to humans. This is the epitome of arrogance.

Have you ever considered that your view of God is wrong and that he is a person who can and does communicate with humans? What if you're the one who's wrong?

No, I have never considered that because I have complete certitude of my beliefs.

Of course they're delusional to you, because you've limited yourself to believe that God isn't personal. I'm sure you would seem delusional to them with your beliefs.

They can believe whatever they want to, as can I. I do not care if they think I am delusional.

If they're human, then they're normal people.

See passage cited above.

That's your own personal faith based belief. Other religious people believe differently, so who's right? That's why debating religion is useless, since it's based on circular reasoning, special pleading and subjective experience which can't be independently verified.

I believe I am right, they believe they are right, only God knows who is right. I believe will find out after we die although I am not sure everyone will find out. If people were in the dark here, they might remain in the dark in the afterlife.

Yet you believe He communicates with humans that you believe to be messengers, and once again you can't discount or disprove the personal experience of other believers who believe they were in contact with God, it seems like you're the one who's arrogant and prideful since you think you're right and everyone else is wrong. You are the epitome of arrogance.

No, I do not think “I” am right and everyone else is wrong. I have certitude of my beliefs. If people want to believe that were in contact with God that is their choice since we all have free will to choose. If you want to believe that you can too. I would never want to be in contact with God even if it was possible, because I understand the nature of God and how powerful He is. Besides, I do not need to be in contact with God because I believe that what Baha’u’llah wrote is the Voice of God Himself.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it. O peoples of the world! Cast away, in My name that transcendeth all other names, the things ye possess, and immerse yourselves in this Ocean in whose depths lay hidden the pearls of wisdom and of utterance, an ocean that surgeth in My name, the All-Merciful. Thus instructeth you He with Whom is the Mother Book.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 33-34

I consider this conversation over because there is nothing more to say unless you have something new to bring to the table.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then how can you trust that He communicated with them at all? It's unbelievable and irrational to me that you would accept what the Messengers are saying as true if you don't believe that they had direct contact with God. Like seriously, why believe anything they say? How can you trust them? How did they learn anything about God, if they didn't have direct contact with Him?

God communicated with them through the Holy Spirit and that is as direct as it gets.
I do not understand exactly how they received communication from God as that is beyond my ability to understand, so I simply accept what I cannot understand, and besides that, I have no need to know.

Why I trust Baha'u'llah is not something anyone can understand unless they are a Baha'i.

 

[Trailblazer]

Without the mysterious "original" message, the Baha'i can't show how there was a progression from the one and only true God.

What mysterious "original" message are you referring to?

Wow, I'm trying to reconcile the different religions? No, I think they were very much made up by the people and culture from where they came.

Good then, if that is what you believe we don't have to discuss this anymore.

Just tell me what Baha'i really mean when they say "all religions are one"... even though, like you said, they are all different.

It means they all came from the one true God. Baha'u'llah explained why the religions are different.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

 

[Trailblazer]

Matthew 24:6 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

End of what? It does not say end of the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who is this Matthew that you are quoting? Was he someone special?

Matthew the Apostle, also known as Saint Matthew and as Levi, was, according to the New Testament, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus. According to Christian tradition, he was also one of the four Evangelists and thus is also known as Matthew the Evangelist.
Place of burial: Cathedral of Saint Mary of the ...
Profession: Tax collector

Matthew the Apostle - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

So Hindus, Christians and even Baha'is pray to their Gods. But God does not answer back?

I do not believe God answers in a voice, but sometimes we get an answer to our prayers, even if we did not make a request in prayer, because God knows what we want and need. I got an answer to my unspoken prayers yesterday. I am looking right at her.

And in this sect of Hinduism, God does make "personal" appearances.

People are free to believe that of they want to and people believe all sorts of things, but that does not make them true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Good luck with that happening. It will require a completely new species to fulfil this. It's in man's nature to want more than others.

It is man's material nature that wants more, but man also has a spiritual nature that is noble.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

The full passage can be read here: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

 

[ppp]

It is man's material nature that wants more, but man also has a spiritual nature that is noble.

My material nature is noble. It's my spiritual nature that wants more.

 

[Trailblazer]

So the method of delivering messages is flawed.

Because god intentionally sends messages we can't understand.

Once again you tie yourself in knots.

I said: They do not communicate with God, God communicates to them, through the Holy Spirit. How that happens is not something we ordinary humans can understand because it is beyond our ability to understand.

We do not need to understand how God communicates to the Messengers; all we need to understand is the messages they deliver.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Citadel of Faith, was written by Shoghi Effendi between 1947 and 1957 and does no more indicate a messenger from god or some Muslim who hates America.

Shoghi Effendi was not a Messenger of God. He was one of the two appointed interpreters of the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it's up to religious people to prove the bible is from god or a manmade invention.

It is not up to me because I am not a Jew or a Christian.
The Bible is their book.

 

[Trailblazer]

So a god that loves us, wants us to follow him and do as he tells us to, can't be bothered to talk to us.

God did talk to us, through Baha'u'llah.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 33

If he communicated directly with us and people still denied him, then they wouldn't deserve him.

If people make demands upon God to communicate with them directly they don't deserve Him.

If God communicated to people directly nobody would deny Him. That is one reason God does not communicate directly as God wants belief to be a choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

So he can't be bothered with us and we can't be bothered with him.

Don't be then. God does not need anyone's belief because God is fully self-sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.”Gleanings, p. 148

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

How do you know god isn't a person have you seen it? Or do you make that claim based on what others tell you? Others that also have no clue of what this god is or isn't.

I believe what God is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote about God.

 

[Trailblazer]

So the method of delivering messages is flawed. Because we mere mortals don't understand it.

I never said we cannot understand the message. I said we cannot understand HOW God communicates to the Messengers. We do not need to understand that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Whenever cornered, count on the theists to come up with the apologetic of "but god has a plan" and "god is mysterious".

We say that because it is true, although not all theists know what the Plan is.

 

[Trailblazer]

My explanation fits the evidence and the facts perfectly. And that explanation is that humans invented their religions out of thin air.

Believe whatever explanation you want to believe and I will believe mine.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's a very reasonable expectation.

No expectations of God are ever reasonable, because it is UNreasonable to expect anything from God.

We humans are anything but all-knowing and yet we already know and realize that relying on human story telling to convey an accurate message through the ages (or even just within a single generation), is about the best way to fail at that.

If we, with our limited knowledge, know that, it's safe to assume an all-knowing entity would know that too.

It's all the same. It relies on human communication, re-telling, interpretation, translation,...

It has nothing to do with free will and choices. It has everything to do with how human brains work.
People can be of the best will possible and still messages would get warped.

You are darn tootin' that the messages get warped over time, and that God knows that will happen, and that is one reason why God sends another Messenger with a new message that is not warped.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171