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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
If the God behaves consistently, then when the followers' prayers go unanswered, this would be a sign that the religion is false.

However, if he did as Baha'u'llah did - i.e. argue that God is capricious and will do as he pleases - then the con artist will have an excuse for when prayers go unanswered. He would have made it harder to definitively establish that his scam really is a scam.
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That is the funniest thing I have heard all year, but it is only September 23.
Good luck explaining all the things Baha'u'llah did for God and humanity as a scam.

God is not capricious just because He does not take any marching orders from atheists.
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Joe W said:
If one ignores all the books, and the people who say/write there is an afterlife, where does one find the evidence that there is an afterlife?
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With no evidence we have to look at the other stories to calculate any truth. So if the story tellers lied then why should we believe them now?
 
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ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
With no evidence we have to look at the other stories to calculate any truth. So if the story tellers lied then why should we believe them now?
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I don't see how we can calculate truth from just stories. The only way to determine if the claim of the story is true is to examine the reality and compare it to what the story says.
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Because this approach would be useful to a con artist.

Say a con artist invented a religion with a God that supposedly responds to prayer, but the con artist knows that this God is made up.

If the God behaves consistently, then when the followers' prayers go unanswered, this would be a sign that the religion is false.

However, if he did as Baha'u'llah did - i.e. argue that God is capricious and will do as he pleases - then the con artist will have an excuse for when prayers go unanswered. He would have made it harder to definitively establish that his scam really is a scam.
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With all the different man made religions going on through time that's exactly what a con man would say to cover the truth.
They have to prove their version is the 1 truth in a sea of lies.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Joe W said:
This is the real world.
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Not according to my beliefs.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Trailblazer said:
That is the funniest thing I have heard all year, but it is only September 23.
Good luck explaining all the things Baha'u'llah did for God and humanity as a scam.

God is not capricious just because He does not take any marching orders from atheists.
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You're not willing to listen; fair enough. I shouldn't have tried.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Joe W said:
Cool. Go drop an anvil on your foot. It's not real...according to my beliefs.
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The beauty of free will is that we are all free to believe whatever we want to believe...
Then when we die we will find out if our beliefs were true.
I never worry about that.
 
A Vestigial Mote

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
It is also true that what is not convincing has nothing to do with what is true or false. ;)
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Yet it has nearly everything to do with whether or not I am going to spend any of my time actively believing in something that cannot be properly evidenced, is not convincingly evidenced in any way, shape or form, and does not appear to present itself to me in reality in any way. You can talk in absolutes all you want, and point out that a subjective experience gets only maybe a sliver of "truth" (if that), and yet there still exists not enough reason for me to believe at all.

As a simple example of something I do believe in - I believe in my dog. My dog is sleeping on the couch, right now, and while I cannot see her because my back is to her, I can hear her snoring. Here... let me look back and... OH! Yes... there she is! Now I also have visual confirmation of her existence. She's mostly obscured by a pillow at the moment, but I can see the top of her head and one of her ears. Now let me get up and go over there for a second. She woke up as I approached, and looked up at me. I then pat her on the had, and told her she was a "good girl." All of this evidence is pretty strong and very convincing toward the idea that my dog is something that exists.

Now... YOU would likely claim that your god is even MORE FUNDAMENTAL to my reality than my dog. Can you see how stupidly ridiculous that claim will ALWAYS seem to me, given the ability I have to produce evidence of my dog for myself? Can you see? Do you understand why I will probably never accept the idea of "god," whose existence can likely not ever be demonstrated in any way?
 
Aupmanyav

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Trailblazer said:
Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.”
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Beautiful translation. It seems to have been written before Moses and Jesus.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
A Vestigial Mote said:
Yet it has nearly everything to do with whether or not I am going to spend any of my time actively believing in something that cannot be properly evidenced, is not convincingly evidenced in any way, shape or form, and does not appear to present itself to me in reality in any way. You can talk in absolutes all you want, and point out that a subjective experience gets only maybe a sliver of "truth" (if that), and yet there still exists not enough reason for me to believe at all.
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It cannot be evidenced to YOU because you do not SEE the evidence as evidence. We humans all see things differently. But if you are not convinced by the evidence that God provides, then you are not going to believe, it is as simple as that. I do not see any solution to that unless you changed the way you view the evidence. That would require you to change your way of thinking about evidence and what would constitute evidence for God.
A Vestigial Mote said:
As a simple example of something I do believe in - I believe in my dog. My dog is sleeping on the couch, right now, and while I cannot see her because my back is to her, I can hear her snoring. Here... let me look back and... OH! Yes... there she is! Now I also have visual confirmation of her existence. She's mostly obscured by a pillow at the moment, but I can see the top of her head and one of her ears. Now let me get up and go over there for a second. She woke up as I approached, and looked up at me. I then pat her on the had, and told her she was a "good girl." All of this evidence is pretty strong and very convincing toward the idea that my dog is something that exists.
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I also see two of my cats sleeping on the couch right now, so I know they exist. They exist in the material word where I also exist so I can see them. I do not see God because God does not exist in the material world. God sends Messengers as proof because we can SEE the Messengers. We can see who they are, what they do, and what they write.
A Vestigial Mote said:
Now... YOU would likely claim that your god is even MORE FUNDAMENTAL to my reality than my dog. Can you see how stupidly ridiculous that claim will ALWAYS seem to me, given the ability I have to produce evidence of my dog for myself? Can you see? Do you understand why I will probably never accept the idea of "god," whose existence can likely not ever be demonstrated in any way?
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Yes, I would claim that God is even MORE FUNDAMENTAL to your reality than your dog,

Yes indeed, I can see why you will probably never accept the idea of "god." As I told you before, I have been posting almost exclusively to atheists 24/7 for over seven years, so I know how they think about evidence. But I suggest you try to think differently, more realistically and more logically, and the only way you will ever be able to do that is if you understand something about God and why there can never be the KIND of evidence you require. Then if you still require evidence that is unobtainable, fine.

First, you would need to understand that God is not a material being, so God can never be demonstrated in the material world like your dog can be demonstrated. Obviously any evidence of God would have to be demonstrable in the material world were you to see it and believe it is evidence of God. I believe that the Messengers of God are that evidence, the most direct evidence of God that we have.
 
ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
The beauty of free will is that we are all free to believe whatever we want to believe.
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Obviously false. I cannot believe that the mug on my desk is actually a live adult Asian Elephant, no matter how much I might want to.
 
A Vestigial Mote

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
First, you would need to understand that God is not a material being, so God can never be demonstrated in the material world like your dog can be demonstrated. Obviously any evidence of God would have to be demonstrable in the material world were you to see it and believe it is evidence of God. I believe that the Messengers of God are that evidence, the most direct evidence of God that we have.
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This will never be good enough for me, and I am of the opinion that it should not be good enough for you either. You can do as you wish, but I believe you to be living under erroneous assumptions. You cling to what you admit you cannot know, and even assert that it represents some fundamental truth about the universe. It will never make any sense to me.
 
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