God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Hermit Philosopher]

So what was the message you didn't understand?

So what was the message you didn't understand?

My friend, you have lost me already!

Humbly
Hermit

 

[ppp]

I noticed that was not a question, so I’m assuming it’s meant as a statement?

Yes. Correct. You are saying that there are messages from something divine. I am saying that what you are claiming to be messages could be the product of confirmation bias and pareidolia, and not the product of anything divine.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That is patently false. Every time you attack Baha'u'llah, and I have to defend Him, I am honored in the world to come, so you are doing me a big favor. Thanks.

“It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty......

If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor.” Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 329-330

Have you any evidence of life after death?

If not Bahaollah promises something that never gets delivered.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Yes. Correct. You are saying that there are messages from something divine. I am saying that what you are claiming to be messages could be the product of confirmation bias and pareidolia, and not the product of anything divine.

Thank you. I understood you, Joe.

So, I was saying that whiles you very well could be right, you could also very well be wrong. But as it’s not about you being right/wrong, it makes no difference. To me, that is.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Thank you. I understood you, Joe.

So, I was saying that whiles you very well could be right, you could also very well be wrong. But as it’s not about you being right/wrong, it makes no difference. To me, that is.

Humbly
Hermit

If a book starts off with fiction and carries on with fiction it can't be relied upon as carrying a message from any god.

All the instances quoted in this thread as messages from god are in fact messages from evolution and here you're stuck. Because you have to stick to the 6-7 days story. And that was clearly written by men to scare the people into doing what they were told.

 

[Trailblazer]

If only those who want to believe believe and the rest don't what does that say about this god?

To me it says that the others have chosen not to believe in God.
It says nothing about God.

To me, it says he isn't there or doesn't care. As inventing a religion or discovering a new version of it isn't beyond the capabilities of people we must look at the hard evidence. Where is it?

I believe that the Messenger of God is the "hard evidence" of God and that Baha'u'llah is the best evidence of God that humanity has ever had. Jesus was also good evidence, but since His life and mission are not verifiable, Jesus is not as good evidence as Baha'u'llah, since everything about Baha'u'llah is verifiable, including the fact that He wrote His own scriptures.

But I will ask again what's the downside of not believing?

I believe that the primary downside is that we will not know anything about God or His will for us, which is the beginning and the end of all things, according to my beliefs.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

Not knowing God will affect us more in the afterlife than it does in this life. In this life we can pretend God does not exist and live for the things of this world, to eat and drink and be merry, but that will no longer be possible in the afterlife because it is not a material world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you any evidence of life after death?

If not Bahaollah promises something that never gets delivered.

There is evidence but there is no proof.
Baha'u'llah would not promise anything that was not going to be delivered.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

To me it says that the others have chosen not to believe in God.
It says nothing about God.

I believe that the Messenger of God is the "hard evidence" of God and that Baha'u'llah is the best evidence of God that humanity has ever had. Jesus was also good evidence, but since His life and mission are not verifiable, Jesus is not as good evidence as Baha'u'llah, since everything about Baha'u'llah is verifiable, including the fact that He wrote His own scriptures.

I believe that the primary downside is that we will not know anything about God or His will for us, which is the beginning and the end of all things, according to my beliefs.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

Not knowing God will affect us more in the afterlife than it does in this life. In this life we can pretend God does not exist and live for the things of this world, to eat and drink and be merry, but that will no longer be possible in the afterlife because it is not a material world.

Your problem is you judge gods by human frailties. I expect gods to be gods and not rely on a bunch of lesser beings to get his message, not send people who make very little marks in their lives and others claim they are messengers from god.

A god that can create the world and universe in 6 days, flood the Earth because we upset him, give Israelites a WMD, send plagues to Egypt, knock down the walls of Jericho, etc. Can either send a decent message or as History and archaeology have now proven they were all made up stories.

As for your afterlife story, what if that also is an invention like so much more in the bible?

Made up to scare the children.

 

[ppp]

Thank you. I understood you, Joe.

So, I was saying that whiles you very well could be right, you could also very well be wrong. But as it’s not about you being right/wrong, it makes no difference. To me, that is.

Humbly
Hermit

Yes. It does matter to me whether or not what I believe and what I say is true. I cannot ignore the increased probability for causing harm from acting on beliefs that are not true. Nor can I muster the hubris necessary to consider myself the gauge of what is fact.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

...you have to stick to the 6-7 days story. And that was clearly written by men to scare the people into doing what they were told.

Paul, perhaps your reply was only mistakenly directed at me... I personally don’t subscribe to literal interpretations of scripture and am not in fear of my beliefs.

However, I sense that you are ...upset/frustrated...? Not sure what you’re experiencing here...

Anyhow, it is somewhat, eh... strange that people who do not themselves believe in the existence of Divine Messages, should bother answering a question about whether such are flawed or not, do you think? You’re bound to feel that you’re speaking to deaf ears, really.

To upset yourself too much with what others think and you do not, is not constructive. A bit of a waste of your own energy, if you will.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

There is evidence but there is no proof.
Baha'u'llah would not promise anything that was not going to be delivered.

So where is the evidence?
Baha'u'llah beliefs are necessarily the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I expect gods to be gods and not rely on a bunch of lesser beings to get his message, not send people who make very little marks in their lives and others claim they are messengers from god.

You can expect whatever you want to expect, but getting it is another matter.
The evidence indicates that God uses Messengers to communicate to humans.
God does whatever He chooses to do and nothing more.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

As for your afterlife story, what if that also is an invention like so much more in the bible?

What if it isn't?

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Yes. It does matter to me whether or not what I believe and what I say is true. I cannot ignore the increased probability for causing harm from acting on beliefs that are not true. Nor can I muster the hubris necessary to consider myself the gauge of what is fact.

I understand what you are saying, Joe. It’s good for you to know what is of importance to you.

Know thyself, as is said.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[Trailblazer]

So where is the evidence?
Baha'u'llah beliefs are necessarily the truth.

There is evidence of an afterlife aside from what Baha'u'lalh wrote.
It is described in books such as the following.

The Afterlife Revealed

Private Dowding

Heaven and Hell

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You can expect whatever you want to expect, but getting it is another matter.
The evidence indicates that God uses Messengers to communicate to humans.
God does whatever He chooses to do and nothing more.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

What if it isn't?

You're right in that the people who say he exists and sends messengers can say that he doesn't need to communicate, put any irrefutable evidence in front of us and all the rest to avoid the fact. The evidence isn't there.

Like your afterlife myth.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

We live in fairly peaceful times when one looks back at History. If this god couldn't get his message over while millions were being slaughtered in his name, what're the chances of him bothering now. That's assuming he's not a figment of the imagination of clever men.

 

[ppp]

There is evidence of an afterlife aside from what Baha'u'lalh wrote.
It is described in books such as the following.

The Afterlife Revealed

Private Dowding

Heaven and Hell

If one ignores all the books, and the people who say/write there is an afterlife, where does one find the evidence that there is an afterlife?

 

[Trailblazer]

If one ignores all the books, and the people who say/write there is an afterlife, where does one find the evidence that there is an afterlife?

When they die.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why would this be consistent with a con artist?

Because this approach would be useful to a con artist.

Say a con artist invented a religion with a God that supposedly responds to prayer, but the con artist knows that this God is made up.

If the God behaves consistently, then when the followers' prayers go unanswered, this would be a sign that the religion is false.

However, if he did as Baha'u'llah did - i.e. argue that God is capricious and will do as he pleases - then the con artist will have an excuse for when prayers go unanswered. He would have made it harder to definitively establish that his scam really is a scam.

 

[ppp]

When they die.

Then no way to confirm it in the real world.