God And Homosexuality

[sojourner]

I never disguised my belief to make it look like a fact - like you are doing here.

I'm pointing out that your beliefs are not applicable to the world-at-large. But you seem to think that "God's laws" are somehow universal.

The DSM makes no determination about morality.

I never claimed that it did. I did claim that the DSM does not list homosexuality as "abnormal."

You don't understand that sin is a product of the natural man (i.e. our "nature").

No, I fully understand that you believe that. I, however, choose to give humanity the benefit of the doubt. I choose to believe that our natural state is to be in union with God. Sin is an illusion and a cover-up.

You have been trying to force your beliefs upon me and tried to shut me up by accusing me of engaging in "hate speech".

I've forced nothing upon you. I've called out inappropriate social behavior and identified it for what it is. I can't help it if you can't deal with that fact.

I have not violated any forum rules.

I never claimed that you did.

You act nothing like the Apostles as recorded in the New Testament.

I never claimed to be a New Testament Apostle.

So much for your "apostolic authority".

Welp... I have it, and nothing you say or believe can change that fact. It's a matter of record. There are just realities that lie outside your belief ecosystem as you've stated here. Right now, your posts appear to be lashing out indiscriminately in anger and frustration at the juxtaposition of those realities and the ones your posts claim.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

You literally do not understand the difference between sharing an opinion and stating a fact.

I'd L-O-L if it wasn't so sad.

You also don't seem to notice your hypocrisy. Either from lack of awareness or willful ignorance - that's not clear - but I'm convinced it's a bit of both.

I'm pointing out that your beliefs are not applicable to the world-at-large.

That would be according to you - as in your opinion - but no one could tell because you state your opinion as if it were fact.

Another of your attempts to foist or force your beliefs upon others.

I believe that my beliefs are applicable - meaning relevant and appropriate - to the world-at-large and I have the right to share them with whomever I desire.

Since my doing so does not violate any of the forum rules - you have no grounds for contention.

But you seem to think that "God's laws" are somehow universal.

I absolutely believe that God's laws are universal.

It

I never claimed that it did. I did claim that the DSM does not list homosexuality as "abnormal."

Yes - you did.

In Post #1032 I said, "I have yet to see any “scientific precedent” that contradicts the claim that homosexual behavior is sinful."

You responded to that in Post # 1052 with, "DSM IV"

You claimed that the DSM IV made a determination on the morality of homosexual behavior.

You reiterated that claim in Post #1079 when you said, "medical science has informed us that sexual orientation is a normal and healthy part of human sexuality and sexual identity -- that that identity is who we are. And then you come along, dismiss that evidence, and claim that the bible says that homosexuality is a sin."

You argued that something being "normal and healthy" - as determined by "medical science" (i.e. the DSM) - cannot be sinful or immoral.

These are not the only times you have made similar claims.

Also - just a BTW - the idea that we are should be identified by our sexuality - rather than as a sum of our parts - disgusts me to no end.

I am a heterosexual - but that does not define me or determine who I am as a person.

I never claimed that homosexuality or homosexual behavior were "abnormal" so I don't know why you would claim to refute an argument I never made.

There is nothing "abnormal" about sin. It is a product of the human condition - the natural man - and always will be.

No, I fully understand that you believe that. I, however, choose to give humanity the benefit of the doubt. I choose to believe that our natural state is to be in union with God. Sin is an illusion and a cover-up.

You did a better job here. You said, "I choose.." - which I interpreted as "I believe..." - so it was not another attempt to foist or force your beliefs upon me.

I believe that this stance is rather contradictory with other claims on this thread. I'm not sure that you were the one who made them but I will mention them here.

There have been those who argue that we are morally and intellectually superior than those who lived in Biblical times and they use this argument to discredit and ignore what the Bible teaches.

If I remember correctly - you used a similar argument to support your claim that we should disregard what was written in the Bible.

Everyone can believe and do whatever they want - but the idea that our natural or base state is how we find union with God makes no sense in light of observable facts.

The most depraved, carnal and evil acts committed by Man are done when we rely more on our base desires and natures.

Basically - people claim that we should reject the Bible because the people who wrote it were primitive - but here you are arguing that we find union with God in our primitive state.

As I have said multiple times to you on this thread - you are free to believe and do whatever you want - but you saying all this proves exactly what I have been saying.

I have been saying that all of your arguments were just attempts to justify sin.

You can believe that there is no sin - and therefore everyone is perfect the moment that God created them and they require no change or repentance - but when I look at the world I am more and more convinced that human beings are not perfect.

However - since you do not believe in sin - then you must also believe that there is no wickedness? No one can do any wrong?

If that is so - then why are you arguing with me since I did nothing wrong?

I've forced nothing upon you.

Correct - since that would be impossible - no one can force any idea or belief upon anyone else - but you sure as heck tried your darnedest.

That is why I said, "You have been trying to force your beliefs upon me..."

I've called out inappropriate social behavior and identified it for what it is.

Yet another attempt to foist or force your beliefs upon me.

If you had said, "I believe what you said was inappropriate social behavior and called you out for it" - that would not be an attempt to foist your beliefs on me.

Sadly - (or is it comically?) - you don't seem to understand the difference between sharing an opinion and stating a fact.

I do not believe that anything I have shared can reasonably be categorized as "inappropriate social behavior" and I am not accountable to your personal and subjective rules of conduct.

Unless you believe I am violating the forum rules you cannot attempt to stifle or censure me (like when you claimed I engaged in "hate speech").

I am free to say whatever I please on this website as long as I do so within the bounds the administrators have set.

If anything - your attempts to foist your beliefs upon me are the only examples of "inappropriate social behavior" in our discussions.

You not knowing what a forum is is just icing on the cake.

I can't help it if you can't deal with that fact.

It is not a fact - but your opinion disguised as a fact - and you know it.

My last couple responses to you have been attempts to educate you about what you are doing - but I am more and more convinced that you are fully aware of what you are doing and don't care.

I never claimed that you did.

Your accusation that I engaged in "hate speech" was an accusation of me violating this forum's rules.

Unfortunately for you - this forum does not define "hate speech" as "Things I don't agree with or like to hear" - like you seem to - so I am not in violation.

I never claimed to be a New Testament Apostle.

Oh ok. That makes sense.

So - if I were to claim that I were a "baker" - yet I do nothing that actual bakers do - like bake things - I can still claim to be a baker?

The Apostles in the New Testament set a standard and you don't live up to it.

Are you claiming to be an Apostle for Satan instead? Because that would make a lot more sense considering the things you have shared here.

Welp... I have it, and nothing you say or believe can change that fact.

No - you believe that you have it and nothing I say or believe can change you from believing it.

Man - you really don't understand the difference between opinion and fact.

It's a matter of record.

Yet - the Bible records that sin exists - but here you are disputing what that record claims.

Almost makes you wonder if something being a "matter of record" actually makes it true?

Doesn't it?

There are just realities that lie outside your belief ecosystem as you've stated here.

Yes - I never claimed to know everything and I never claimed that I shared everything there is to know in this thread.

This is true.

Don't know what it has to do with anything though.

Realities lying outside what I have shared here does not mean that what I have shared is untrue.

Right now, your posts appear to be lashing out indiscriminately in anger and frustration at the juxtaposition of those realities and the ones your posts claim.

Nothing you have shared contradicts what I have claimed.

So - no juxtaposition - but good job on using that word correctly. Maybe you can learn?

As I said earlier - my last couples posts have been attempts to point out the illogical and hypocritical things you say.

I literally do not care what you believe about sin and homosexuality.

You have no argument and I think I'll cry while laughing to balance things out.

So sad and hilarious.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Since my doing so does not violate any of the forum rules - you have no grounds for contention.

They actually do prohibit proselytizing.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

They actually do prohibit proselytizing.

I am aware and for that reason I have avoided doing that.

sojourner - on the other hand - often states his/her opinion as a matter of fact - which can be subject to moderation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am aware and for that reason I have avoided doing that.

sojourner - on the other hand - often states his/her opinion as a matter of fact - which can be subject to moderation.

If it's not proselytizing its not against the rules. It has to be against the rules for it to be subject to moderation. Stating opinion as matter of fact isn't necessarily against the rules.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

If it's not proselytizing its not against the rules. It has to be against the rules for it to be subject to moderation. Stating opinion as matter of fact isn't necessarily against the rules.

The forum rule concerning "Preaching/Proselytizing" reads,

"Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching." (Bold and italics added)

He has stated his opinion as if it were a definitive matter of fact and he has done so without offering any references.

It is just as I said - "sojourner - on the other hand - often states his/her opinion as a matter of fact - which can be subject to moderation." (Bold and italics added)

You tried to claim that I was guilty of violating this forum rule when I wasn't.

You also tried to misrepresent what I had said about sojourner's stating his opinion as if it were fact.

What's up with you?

You can read all the forum rules here,

RF Rules

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The forum rule concerning "Preaching/Proselytizing" reads,

"Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching." (Bold and italics added)

He has stated his opinion as if it were a definitive matter of fact and he has done so without offering any references.

It is just as I said - "sojourner - on the other hand - often states his/her opinion as a matter of fact - which can be subject to moderation." (Bold and italics added)

You tried to claim that I was guilty of violating this forum rule when I wasn't.

You also tried to misrepresent what I had said about sojourner's stating his opinion as if it were fact.

What's up with you?

You can read all the forum rules here,

RF Rules

It seems you started it by stating your religion and its dogma is a fact and not opinion.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

It seems you started it by stating your religion and its dogma is a fact and not opinion.

Could you share where you believe I did this please?

 

[sojourner]

You literally do not understand the difference between sharing an opinion and stating a fact.

This is projection. See below.

That would be according to you - as in your opinion - but no one could tell because you state your opinion as if it were fact.

These are facts that I have stated:
1) Current medical science holds that homosexuality is a normal and healthful form of human sexuality
2) Human sexual identity is part of one's total identity.
3) The medical community does not concern itself with what seems "sinful."
4) American law does not concern itself with what seems "sinful."
5) When one passes public judgment upon another, based upon who that person is (in this case, "homosexual"), and posits that the person so judged is beneath some arbitrary and unfounded acceptable social standard, and seeks to differentiate that person based upon that judgment, that judgment is discriminatory. Discrimination is a form of systemic violence (in that the social system traditionally stands against the person so judged). We can see this in how the black population, the Jewish population, the Native population, among others, have traditionally been treated by the majority who have social power. In this case, heterosexuals are the prevailing social majority with a majority of social power. Any judgmental speech condemning the minority by virtue of who they are can be determined to be "hate speech."

I believe that my beliefs are applicable - meaning relevant and appropriate - to the world-at-large and I have the right to share them with whomever I desire.

Your beliefs stop at the end of your nose. That means that your beliefs are neither relevant nor appropriate to the world-at-large. To extend those beliefs beyond the end of your nose constitutes entitlement.

Since my doing so does not violate any of the forum rules - you have no grounds for contention.

I do if your speech violates social standards of decency. In fact, I'm constrained to raise protest against such discrimination.

I absolutely believe that God's laws are universal.

Again: (and see your first statement above, and my reply to it) what you believe is what you believe. It is not fact. In fact "God's laws" are not universal in the eyes of American society or American law. "God's laws" may pertain to you -- but only to you, as one who believes in them and submits yourself to them. You cannot submit other people to them. If you believe God says, "Thou shalt not be homosexual," then you have the right to not be homosexual. But you cannot force others to submit to that same "law." it simply is not a fact that God says, "Thou shalt not be homosexual." it's your belief. And that belief stops at the end of your nose.

You reiterated that claim in Post #1079 when you said, "medical science has informed us that sexual orientation is a normal and healthy part of human sexuality and sexual identity -- that that identity is who we are. And then you come along, dismiss that evidence, and claim that the bible says that homosexuality is a sin."

You argued that something being "normal and healthy" - as determined by "medical science" (i.e. the DSM) - cannot be sinful or immoral.

Correct. The DSM does not concern itself with "sin."

Also - just a BTW - the idea that we are should be identified by our sexuality - rather than as a sum of our parts - disgusts me to no end.

I'm sorry reality disgusts you so.

I am a heterosexual - but that does not define me or determine who I am as a person.

Of course it determines, in part, your identity as a person. Each human being has a sexual component that determines part of her or his identity. Your belief or "ick factor" cannot change that fact.

There is nothing "abnormal" about sin. It is a product of the human condition - the natural man - and always will be.

Of course there is! have you not read Genesis?? Sin is not what we were created to be.

If I remember correctly - you used a similar argument to support your claim that we should disregard what was written in the Bible.

No, I merely stated that the Bible was not a science text and, as such, is a poor reference to refer to what is normal and healthful for human beings.

Everyone can believe and do whatever they want - but the idea that our natural or base state is how we find union with God makes no sense in light of observable facts.

The most depraved, carnal and evil acts committed by Man are done when we rely more on our base desires and natures.

You're grossly misunderstanding what I mean by "natural state." Depraved, carnal, evil acts are, in the spiritual milieu, sinful. But that sin is not our natural or base state. Rather, it's something we take onto ourselves. When God created humanity, God judged us "very good."

You can believe that there is no sin - and therefore everyone is perfect the moment that God created them and they require no change or repentance - but when I look at the world I am more and more convinced that human beings are not perfect.

My belief or disbelief in sin isn't at issue. What's at issue is the fact that sin is not factored into the equation when medical, social, and legal determinations are being made.

However - since you do not believe in sin - then you must also believe that there is no wickedness? No one can do any wrong?

See above.

Yet another attempt to foist or force your beliefs upon me.

No. The putting forth of fact is not "forcing belief."

I do not believe that anything I have shared can reasonably be categorized as "inappropriate social behavior" and I am not accountable to your personal and subjective rules of conduct.

Of course you don't. And the entitled don't believe they're entitled, either. Walk into a gay biker bar sometime, tell the clientele loudly that who they are is sinful, try to close the bar down on that basis alone, and you'll quickly find out what is "inappropriate social behavior." You can't hide behind your keyboard and monitor. The internet is legally public space.

I am free to say whatever I please on this website as long as I do so within the bounds the administrators have set.

And Paul said, "All things are legal, but not all things are beneficial..."

My last couple responses to you have been attempts to educate you about what you are doing - but I am more and more convinced that you are fully aware of what you are doing and don't care.

Right back at ya.

Unfortunately for you - this forum does not define "hate speech" as "Things I don't agree with or like to hear" - like you seem to - so I am not in violation.

No, but then, doing so opens your posts to appropriate rebuttal.

So - if I were to claim that I were a "baker" - yet I do nothing that actual bakers do - like bake things - I can still claim to be a baker?

Some bake muffins, some bake cakes, some bake eclairs. All are bakers. Doesn't matter if you don't like muffins, or believe muffins aren't real confections. Again, your beliefs stop at the end of your nose and have no bearing on reality.

The Apostles in the New Testament set a standard and you don't live up to it.

You don't have either the jurisdiction, the authority or the facts at hand to make that determination.

Are you claiming to be an Apostle for Satan instead? Because that would make a lot more sense considering the things you have shared here.

I wonder if this kind of intentional, provocative statement is worthy of Christian standards of behavior?

No - you believe that you have it and nothing I say or believe can change you from believing it.

The documentation signed and conferred by recognized spiritual authorities hanging on my office wall differ with you. It is what it is. The State recognizes it; the Church recognizes it; medical institutions recognize it. I'd have to say it's pretty much a fact.

Yet - the Bible records that sin exists - but here you are disputing what that record claims.

That has nothing to do with the above being a "matter of record."

Realities lying outside what I have shared here does not mean that what I have shared is untrue.

It does if your beliefs are at odds with that reality.

As I said earlier - my last couples posts have been attempts to point out the illogical and hypocritical things you say.

ditto.

I literally do not care what you believe about sin and homosexuality.

That says nothing about caring about prevailing medical, social, and legal facts on the matter.

 

[sojourner]

You also tried to misrepresent what I had said about sojourner's stating his opinion as if it were fact.

What you said about my statements are untrue. You don't have an argumentative leg to stand on here; you realize that fact; and you're attempting to backpedal.