God And Human Sacrifices

[Tumah]

If I may say, God never twisted Jeph-thah arm for Jeph-thah, to keep his end of his promise either. So it was all on Jeph-thah to either go thru with his promise or not go thru on his promise.
So as we find, God didn't say anything one way or the other. So it was all on Jeph-thah to do or not to do.

No, I don't think that's true. Num. 30:3 and Deut. 23:22-24 requires fulfilling oaths made to G-d.

 

[ecco]

When I ask you to prove something in the context of the passage, then it's acceptable.

Here is what you wrote...

The fact that Jephthah was victorious also proves nothing, unless you can prove that had Jephthah not made his vow, G-d would not have made him victorious.

You asked me to prove or disprove what God would or would not have done. So, no. That's beyond acceptable - that's BS - and you know it.


That's why I responded...

When you ask me to prove something that is unprovable, that's acceptable.
When I ask you to prove something that is provable, you chide me for giving a poor response and end the conversation.

 

[Faithofchristian]

No, I don't think that's true. Num. 30:3 and Deut. 23:22-24 requires fulfilling oaths made to G-d.

That is right. When a person, such as Jeph-thah made a promise/vow to God they are obligated to keep their promise/vow, to God.

But however does this mean, that when a person, such as Jeph-thah made his promise/vow, without actually knowing who may walk out the door of his house.

Does this mean that Jeph-thah daughter is also obligated to keep the promise/vow, that her father made without her being aware about such a promise/vow, her father made, between him and God.

Does this mean that Whosoever can make a promise/vow, to God that they can involves you, does that mean your obligated to keep the promise/vow also. Without you being unaware of such a promise/vow.

Alot of Christians believe, God gave each person, "Free Will" to make their own choices in life.

When Jephthah told his daughter about the promise/vow that he made to God.

Seeing how Jephthah daughter told her father that she needed two months to think about the matter.

Now while she was away for two months, She took upon herself
"Free Will" to determined whether she wanted to partake with her fathers promise/vow to God. Unto which she didn't make, but her father made the promise and not her.

It was her "Free Will" to make that decision for herself.

Let's for say, When she came back to her father and she told her father no.

Nothing could happen to her, seeing that she's not the one who made the promise/vow to God, But her father made the promise/vow to God.

So nothing could possibly happen to her, without violating her "Free Will" to make her own choices.

Therefore her father nor God could force her into doing something, without violating her Free Will. To make her choices, whether she wanted to or not wanting to.
So this is why, she went away for two months, to think the matter out, So she could by her Free Will, determine her own choice.

Otherwise people could go about making promises/vows and including someone else in their promise/vow to God and that person is obligated to keep the promise/vow also.

So how would you feel, if someone made a promise/vow to God, and you had no idea about.
So would you give your life because they made a promise/vow that you were unaware about.
What about your "Free Will" to choose for yourself whether you want to or not?

 

[Tumah]

That is right. When a person, such as Jeph-thah made a promise/vow to God they are obligated to keep their promise/vow, to God.

But however does this mean, that when a person, such as Jeph-thah made his promise/vow, without actually knowing who may walk out the door of his house.

Does this mean that Jeph-thah daughter is also obligated to keep the promise/vow, that her father made without her being aware about such a promise/vow, her father made, between him and God.

Does this mean that Whosoever can make a promise/vow, to God that they can involves you, does that mean your obligated to keep the promise/vow also. Without you being unaware of such a promise/vow.

Alot of Christians believe, God gave each person, "Free Will" to make their own choices in life.

When Jephthah told his daughter about the promise/vow that he made to God.

Seeing how Jephthah daughter told her father that she needed two months to think about the matter.

Now while she was away for two months, She took upon herself
"Free Will" to determined whether she wanted to partake with her fathers promise/vow to God. Unto which she didn't make, but her father made the promise and not her.

It was her "Free Will" to make that decision for herself.

Let's for say, When she came back to her father and she told her father no.

Nothing could happen to her, seeing that she's not the one who made the promise/vow to God, But her father made the promise/vow to God.

So nothing could possibly happen to her, without violating her "Free Will" to make her own choices.

Therefore her father nor God could force her into doing something, without violating her Free Will. To make her choices, whether she wanted to or not wanting to.
So this is why, she went away for two months, to think the matter out, So she could by her Free Will, determine her own choice.

Otherwise people could go about making promises/vows and including someone else in their promise/vow to God and that person is obligated to keep the promise/vow also.

So how would you feel, if someone made a promise/vow to God, and you had no idea about.
So would you give your life because they made a promise/vow that you were unaware about.
What about your "Free Will" to choose for yourself whether you want to or not?

Are you trying to shift the blame to Jephthah's daughter?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Are you trying to shift the blame to Jephthah's daughter?

but seeing Jephthah told his daughter all about his promise and then his daughter told her father, she needs two months to think it out.
So now it's all on her, whether or not she wants to go thru with it or not.
She does have a voice in the matter.
You can not make a promise to someone and include someone else, and expect that they do not have a voice in the matter.
They have a right to voicemail their opinion, just as much as the daughter of Jephthah has a voice in the matter also.

So suppose someone made a promise to someone that they included you that your life hung in the balance.So without any say in the matter your to go along with their promise. like it or not, you would go along with it.knowing your life your life is over.

 

[Milton Platt]

I only bring this up because Christians like to point out god's great goodness. As one source puts it:

"To say that God is good means that God always acts in accordance to what is right, true, and good. Goodness is part of God’s nature, and He cannot contradict His nature. Holiness and righteousness are part of God’s nature; He cannot do anything that is unholy or unrighteous. God is the standard of all that is good."
source​

Now I don't know about others here on RF, but I don't see making and accepting human sacrifices as a good thing. And, to be honest, I've never heard any Christian who said they were. Furthermore, I consider accepting a human sacrifice in payment for a promise also to be wrong, as I expect most Christians would. Yet the god of Abraham does just that. In the Bible he grants a favor to a guy named Jephthah in return for the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter. And as a burnt offering no less.

Judges 11: 29-39
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah, and he passed through the area of Gilead and Manasseh. He went through the city of Mizpah in Gilead on his way to the land of the Ammonites.

30 Jephthah made a promise to the Lord. He said, “If you will let me defeat the Ammonites, 31 I will give you the first thing that comes out of my house when I come back from the victory. I will give it to the Lord as a burnt offering.”

32 Then Jephthah went to the land of the Ammonites. He fought the Ammonites, and the Lord helped him defeat them. 33 He defeated them from the city of Aroer to the city of Minnith. Jephthah captured 20 cities. Then he fought the Ammonites to the city of Abel Keramim. The Israelites defeated them. It was a very great defeat for the Ammonites.

34 Jephthah went back to Mizpah. He went to his house, and his daughter came out to meet him. She was playing a tambourine and dancing. She was his only daughter, and Jephthah loved her very much. He did not have any other sons or daughters. 35 When Jephthah saw that his daughter was the first thing to come out of his house, he tore his clothes to show his sadness. Then he said, “Oh, my daughter! You have ruined me! You have made me very sad! I made a promise to the Lord, and I cannot change it!”

36 Then his daughter said to Jephthah, “Father, you have made a promise to the Lord, so keep your promise. Do what you said you would do. After all, the Lord did help you defeat your enemies, the Ammonites.”

37 Then Jephthah’s daughter said to her father, “But do this one thing for me first. Let me be alone for two months. Let me go to the mountains. I will not marry and have children, so let me and my friends go and cry together.”

38 Jephthah said, “Go.” He sent her away for two months. Jephthah’s daughter and her friends stayed in the mountains. They cried for her because she would not marry and have children.

39 At the end of two months, Jephthah’s daughter returned to her father, and Jephthah did what he had promised. ​

Now it may be objected that neither Jephthah nor god knew that Jephthah's daughter would be the first thing to come out of the house, but this simply isn't so. Being omniscient, god certainly knew that when Jephthah returned home the first thing to come out of the house would be his daughter, whom Jephthah would be obligated to sacrifice. In fact, god knew Jephthah’s daughter would be a burnt offering even before he granted him his request. And even if god was not omniscient, because of his divine goodness he would be morally bound to stop Jephthah from incinerating his daughter, just as he stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son. Wouldn't you feel morally bound to stop someone from sacrificing the life of another? Although, after reading that "God is the standard of all that is good" maybe human sacrifice isn't all that bad after all.

In any case, such an intervention never took place. Jephthah had made a deal with god for a favor, and in turn for granting this favor god accepted the sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. Thing is, god had nothing to gain by the sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter, yet he willingly accepted it. He could have said, No.


So, anyone up to defending god's inhumane action, or is it more convenient to forget about it and go on to some inane thread like TRUMP: The Movie?

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Well, he had to have his own son sacrificed to appease his hurt feelings and his worshipers hang a torture device in their places of worship.

 

[Tumah]

but seeing Jephthah told his daughter all about his promise and then his daughter told her father, she needs two months to think it out.
So now it's all on her, whether or not she wants to go thru with it or not.
She does have a voice in the matter.
You can not make a promise to someone and include someone else, and expect that they do not have a voice in the matter.
They have a right to voicemail their opinion, just as much as the daughter of Jephthah has a voice in the matter also.

So suppose someone made a promise to someone that they included you that your life hung in the balance.So without any say in the matter your to go along with their promise. like it or not, you would go along with it.knowing your life your life is over.

It seems like that is not quite how things worked in earlier times. We find that parents were able to and did determine their children's life courses without input from them. See for instance Samuel 1, where Hannah dedicates her child's life to G-d's service.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It seems like that is not quite how things worked in earlier times. We find that parents were able to and did determine their children's life courses without input from them. See for instance Samuel 1, where Hannah dedicates her child's life to G-d's service.

Well then maybe you should go and read Judges 11:34-39 again for yourself.

In verse 37, you will find the daughter saying to her father ( Let this thing be done for me, Let me alone two months)

If to what your saying, (that is not quite how things worked in earlier times)

By reading verse 37, it seems as she is giving her permission by saying ( Let this thing be done for me)

 

[Tumah]

Well then maybe you should go and read Judges 11:34-39 again for yourself.

In verse 37, you will find the daughter saying to her father ( Let this thing be done for me, Let me alone two months)

If to what your saying, (that is not quite how things worked in earlier times)

By reading verse 37, it seems as she is giving her permission by saying ( Let this thing be done for me)

No, that part is her asking for a favor, that she be given two months.

 

[Faithofchristian]

No, that part is her asking for a favor, that she be given two months.

Ok, now if she has no say in the matter, but yet she asking to be given two months. For what?
If she has no say in the matter, to think about it.
What would be the use to think about anything, if she has no say.

It seems that if a person thinks about something that they have no say about.
What is there to think about, When it's a done deal, with no questions asked or anything to think about. It's a done deal.

So what is there to accomplish by thinking about it, knowing no matter what you think or may say, it's a done deal.
But yet she goes away for two months to think about something that she has no say about or to think about, that she has no say about.
So what is there to think about.knowing in the end of the two months, it didn't matter at all.

 

[Tumah]

Ok, now if she has no say in the matter, but yet she asking to be given two months. For what?
If she has no say in the matter, to think about it.
What would be the use to think about anything, if she has no say.

It seems that if a person thinks about something that they have no say about.
What is there to think about, When it's a done deal, with no questions asked or anything to think about. It's a done deal.

So what is there to accomplish by thinking about it, knowing no matter what you think or may say, it's a done deal.
But yet she goes away for two months to think about something that she has no say about or to think about, that she has no say about.
So what is there to think about.knowing in the end of the two months, it didn't matter at all.

I'm not really sure how to do this.

 

[ecco]

but seeing Jephthah told his daughter all about his promise and then his daughter told her father, she needs two months to think it out.
So now it's all on her, whether or not she wants to go thru with it or not.

I'm sure glad you are not my father.