God and Logic?

[rojse]

Just to temporarily divert from the OP:

...why choose from mediocrity when the very best is at hand to choose from?

What do you mean in regards to "the very best at hand", Thief?

 

[MSizer]

If we were to go with Christian theology, none of the Ten Commandments endorse murder. Jesus's teachings did not endorse murder, either.

If God thought it were alright for us to go around murdering people, I'm sure he would have let everyone know.

No, I disagree. How do you know he would have let us know? This is an assumption. There is no place that I can find in the bible (and believe me, I have searched thoroughly) that states that god will never change the laws of morality, hence murder. It goes back to plato ("do the gods love something because it is good, or is something god because the gods love it?") If something is simply good (eternally so) then who needs god; as right and wrong already exist independant of him. If He chooses what is right and what is wrong, he can change his mind at any time.

 

[rojse]

No, I disagree. How do you know he would have let us know? This is an assumption. There is no place that I can find in the bible (and believe me, I have searched thoroughly) that states that god will never change the laws of morality, hence murder. It goes back to plato ("do the gods love something because it is good, or is something god because the gods love it?") If something is simply good (eternally so) then who needs god, as right and wrong already exist independant of him. If He choosed what is ritght and what is wrong, he can change his mind at any time.

We seem to be getting somewhat off-topic here. The morality of God is not at question here; whether God is constrained or not by logic is.

If you wish to create a new thread, I will continue this conversation there.

 

[richardlowellt]

Thief here...Hey Rick!...
Your rebuttal to my post #2 is illogical.
I did not use the word genesis in reference to the Book.
Your conclusion is in error.

Then perhaps you ca tell me in what context you were using the word genesis.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...Hey Rojse...

I see a large number of people on this earth....so many belief systems.
All seem to endeavor escaping this life...and we will...wanting to or not.

Dealing with life after death is more the choice of the angelic, than ours.
Believe as you please, but to stand in the presence of Beings greater than yourself, is an act of grace (allowance) on their part.

You have choices to make. Choose as you please.
But ultimately the choice that really counts for something doesn't belong to anyone...breathing.
The 'choice' belongs to Them.

Why should They allow your presence if you do not say as They say...
perform as They would do?

 

[Erebus]

Is God's actions constrained by logic, or is God able to circumvent logical laws? Why or why not? Or is a question involving God and logical laws inherently meaningless?

By "God" are you referring to the Abrahamic Yahweh? If so, I would argue that God and logic don't go hand in hand simply due to the mass of contradictions surrounding this deity.
If you mean "a/the supreme being" then I would argue that logic is "optional" simply because I picture a supreme being encompassing everything, resulting in a God that performs logical actions, illogical actions and what might best be described as supernatural or miraculous actions. I don't however believe that this entity would be "good" or "evil".
If you mean "a deity" then I would suggest that it depends on the deity in question.

 

[Dunemeister]

Nice vague description. I order to have thoughts one must have a being, yes? I know this must get tiring, but what evidence do you have that this being exists? What would lead you to the conclusion that this imaginary beings thought are the basis for logic?

There are arguments for God's existence -- ontological, cosmological, teleological, ethical, and others. Indeed, no fewer than 20 arguments (or perhaps types of arguments, each with a million variations) have historically been offered. However, I did not acquire my belief in God via any of them. Nor is my belief sustained by any of them. Rather, my belief in God is much like my perceptual, memory, logical, and testimonial beliefs in that I hold it in what epistemologists call the "basic" way.

Consider a memory belief that last year I vacationed in the Cascades and the proposition V: I vacationed in the Cascades last year. Now, I don't argue from my memory to V. That is, my memory does not serve as evidence for V. Rather, you ask me where I went on vacation last year, and the belief V forms or is brought to my awareness. That is, your question about my past occasions my belief, upon reflection perhaps, that V. I form no argument, and indeed, no good argument could be adduced from the fact of my memory to the truth of V. Yet V is perfectly acceptable as a belief. Why? Well, it's because the memory arose as a result of cognitive faculties functioning properly according to a design plan successfully aimed at truth in a congenial cognitive environment. That is, V arose from cognitive faculties (memory, in this instance), those faculties' purpose is to provide true beliefs, the faculties are well-designed for that purpose, at the time the belief was formed the faculties were working properly (that is, according to their design plan), and the faculty was operating in an environment for which it was designed (e.g., there were no cosmic memory-hampering rays in the vicinity). In short, memory is a reliable belief-producing faculty (by and large, and certainly in this case).

Same goes for my belief that God exists. It was formed, not on the basis of argument, but of a reliable belief-producing faculty operating properly in the right conditions. Under the right conditions, humans simply form beliefs about God. These beliefs can (indeed quite often, but not always) constitute knowledge quite apart from there being any good arguments for God's existence (although I think there are several good ones).

Getting back to your question directly, yes I have evidence. But that evidence is, strictly speaking, not the basis for my belief. At best, they offer aid and comfort, but even without them, my belief in God is perfectly rational.

 

[rojse]

Thief here...Hey Rojse...

I see a large number of people on this earth....so many belief systems.
All seem to endeavor escaping this life...and we will...wanting to or not.

Everyone wants to escape this life? What do you mean, Thief?

Dealing with life after death is more the choice of the angelic, than ours.
Believe as you please, but to stand in the presence of Beings greater than yourself, is an act of grace (allowance) on their part.

What do you mean here, Thief?

You have choices to make. Choose as you please.
But ultimately the choice that really counts for something doesn't belong to anyone...breathing.
The 'choice' belongs to Them.

Why should They allow your presence if you do not say as They say...
perform as They would do?

See above.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...Hey Dunemeister...Your last paragraph seems odd.

You say you have evidence...but don't use it to support your belief?
How is this rational?

 

[Thief]

Thief here..Hey Rojse...have you had your coffee this morning?

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Is God's actions constrained by logic, or is God able to circumvent logical laws? Why or why not? Or is a question involving God and logical laws inherently meaningless?

Gods actions must be constrained by (true)logic. Especially if he wants to reveal himself.

If not then he would be able to do the logically impossible which would make such questions as "can he create a stone that cant be created by him" VALID.

Also note... if you take God out of the realm of logic, then you cant really argue in any form about or with him INCLUDING the problem that you cant even take anything in the scriptures and "reason" with it.
An illogical being, not bound by human logic cant be reasoned nor can anything it states be reasoned even within the context of its own laws.

Any books written by theistic scholars about their religion "reasoning" why something is or not and what one should do or not looses all validity.

 

[Dunemeister]

Thief here...Hey Dunemeister...Your last paragraph seems odd.

You say you have evidence...but don't use it to support your belief?
How is this rational?

The same way my memory beliefs are rational. I don't argue from my memories to the truth of the beliefs they represent. Yet the memories are perfectly acceptable. Same for my beliefs in/about God. If my memory (set of beliefs about the past) is rational, so are my beliefs about God. Read the whole post a bit more carefully.

 

[Thief]

Thief here....yes I did...and not wanting to divert to far....

True enough...memory can be faulted...and for cause of it's unreliability
...should not used as evidence.
But we do...in our courts, in our personal lives, in these postings.

I've seen a documentary of a man attempting to regain his memory.
He had lost all personal information.
But he retained his cognitive skills....speech...numbers...driving a car...
His logic remained intact. All else was forever lost.

As for this thread...God has limitations.
Having made a linear existence He abides accordingly.
If He 'changes His mind', it doesn't happen often.
Scripture cites occasion when He did.
Do you think God can retain His logic, when influenced by a conversation with any one of us?
Will He set aside, the linear for.... the deviation...just because you did ask?
Scripture cites occasion.

 

[rojse]

Thief here..Hey Rojse...have you had your coffee this morning?

I'm in Australia, and it's about 1:00 am right now.

And I don't drink coffee.

 

[richardlowellt]

Under the right conditions, humans simply form beliefs about God. These beliefs can (indeed quite often, but not always) constitute knowledge quite apart from there being any good arguments for God's existence (although I think there are several good ones).

Getting back to your question directly, yes I have evidence. But that evidence is, strictly speaking, not the basis for my belief. At best, they offer aid and comfort, but even without them, my belief in God is perfectly rational.[/QUOTE]


To me the difference between you vacation memories (V) and your god beliefs is that your vacation beliefs came from the naturalistic realm.

So because I have no belief in a god I was not exposed to the "right conditions?" "These beliefs often constitute knowledge?" What knowledge?

"Yes I have evidence" what evidence might that be? even though they may not be the basis for your belief.

I would like to hear your "several" good arguments for the existence of god.

 

[Thief]

Thief here....Hey Rojse...
Yes people are endeavoring to escape this life.
That would be the primary thrust of any religion...preparation.

As we crossover...you should anticipate interaction with anyone having gone before you. If not...you will be very lonely.

But the interaction is more Their say-so than yours.

All belief systems have inclination to affirm the system...."I got it...you don't."

I don't allow myself that stance.
And I hedge on the notion that my neutrality will have a better response from the angelic.

If not...I will be very lonely.

 

[Cordoba]

No I don't think people used logic to conclude the earth was flat, they had absolutely no information to come to that conclusion. It was a lack of information that lead them to believe in a flat earth.

Exactly

Logic which is based on incorrect information leads to wrong conclusions

Do we have all the correct information about the universe?

Or are we still at the early stage of learning and understanding?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Take a primary school boy and put him in a physics post-doctoral lecture

Would it all make sense to him?

A child uses basic logic, but does he understand all levels of logic?

Something that is not understood is not necessarily truth so complex we cannot understand it. Sometimes, it's just male cow excrement.

 

[arimoff]

I think G-Ds actions are limited here to work only through logic, He can't actually show his hand, according to scriptures he did it only once and it caused a cultural shock and as a result people build the golden calf.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I think G-Ds actions are limited here to work only through logic, He can't actually show his hand, according to scriptures he did it only once and it caused a cultural shock and as a result people build the golden calf.

God is limited in what He can do? What limits him?