• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

God And Satan: Are They Doing A Good Job?

Dark_Waltz

Active Member
john63 said:
I would like to learn more about Wicca. Can you suggest any good books?
Scott cunningham- Wicca A guide for the solitary practitioner,
Wicca- A further guide.
I really love his approach to wicca its not dressed up and he really has a no nonesense approach to the subject and tackles some snobbery that does unfortunately come about in the subject.
I've had loads of books that I have read, not thought very much of and sold on ebay but scott cunninghams books really are keepers :D
 

Smoke

Done here.
john63 said:
Speaking of Paganism, I wish the Pagans in here would specify what type of pagan they are. Paganism is a blanket term covering many, many different beliefs.
So are "Christianity," "Islam," "Judaism," and "Buddhism."
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
You are referring here to the Genesis story, where Satan tempted humans to disobey God and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. .
This brings up a point I was wanting to discuss with some of my learned brethren. Exactly where in the Bible does it say that the serpent was Satan? I recently began reading the Bible again, my plan is to read it from beginning to end. I haven't really read the Bible that closely for a few years, so when I was reading it this time around, I was a bit surprised at some of the things I read, or more importantly, some of the things I did not read.

Bible starts off with the story of creation, six literal days, then on the 7th day, God was tired and took a break. Create Adam who named all living things. Adam is lonely, so God makes him fall asleep, takes his rib, creates a woman from him.

Everything is hunky doorey until the serpent comes along and tempts Eve with the apple. Except there is no mention of an apple, per se. Nor could I find any reference in Genesis which says that the serpent was possessed by the Devil, or was the Devil in serpent form, or anything of the like.

Is it that preists, and preachers over the centuries have just assumed the snake was possessed by the Devil, or was the Devil in serpent form?

There are many other questions raised by my recent reading of Genesis, but this one seems most pertinent at the moment.

And to answer the question posed to start this thread, it seems to me, that if God's purpose is for humans to be happy, then He is falling well short, as there seems to be a deluge of misery in this world. If God's purpose is that we should suffer and die miserably here so that more souls make it into the afterlife, then He is doing a bang-up job.

As far as Satan. I don't really hear about him too much anymore. I think he was used to scare ignorant peasants into going to Church and forking over 10% of their earnings to the Church. But if Satan's plan is to bring misery to the world, he is going over like gangbusters.

Tho, back to my current reading of Genesis, I thus far have yet to see any mention of Satan, that I can recall. And if he was mentioned but I missed it, I can't see anywhere that he, Satan, has specifically murdered anyone, tho I have noticed that thus far God has killed a couple of people specifically, one for refusing to impregnate a woman who was not his wife. There are also mentions of the total destruction of Soddham, and Gommorrah, and also the complete destruction of the entire world, except for those aboard the Ark.

I can't really understand, thus far, in how those reading or writing the Bible come to the conclusion that God is so great and Satan even exists. Again, if there is a mention of Satan in Genesis that I missed, I would appreciate someone pointing it out to me.

B.
 

Radar

Active Member
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
This brings up a point I was wanting to discuss with some of my learned brethren. Exactly where in the Bible does it say that the serpent was Satan? I recently began reading the Bible again, my plan is to read it from beginning to end. I haven't really read the Bible that closely for a few years, so when I was reading it this time around, I was a bit surprised at some of the things I read, or more importantly, some of the things I did not read.

Bible starts off with the story of creation, six literal days, then on the 7th day, God was tired and took a break. Create Adam who named all living things. Adam is lonely, so God makes him fall asleep, takes his rib, creates a woman from him.

Everything is hunky doorey until the serpent comes along and tempts Eve with the apple. Except there is no mention of an apple, per se. Nor could I find any reference in Genesis which says that the serpent was possessed by the Devil, or was the Devil in serpent form, or anything of the like.

Is it that preists, and preachers over the centuries have just assumed the snake was possessed by the Devil, or was the Devil in serpent form?

There are many other questions raised by my recent reading of Genesis, but this one seems most pertinent at the moment.

And to answer the question posed to start this thread, it seems to me, that if God's purpose is for humans to be happy, then He is falling well short, as there seems to be a deluge of misery in this world. If God's purpose is that we should suffer and die miserably here so that more souls make it into the afterlife, then He is doing a bang-up job.

As far as Satan. I don't really hear about him too much anymore. I think he was used to scare ignorant peasants into going to Church and forking over 10% of their earnings to the Church. But if Satan's plan is to bring misery to the world, he is going over like gangbusters.

Tho, back to my current reading of Genesis, I thus far have yet to see any mention of Satan, that I can recall. And if he was mentioned but I missed it, I can't see anywhere that he, Satan, has specifically murdered anyone, tho I have noticed that thus far God has killed a couple of people specifically, one for refusing to impregnate a woman who was not his wife. There are also mentions of the total destruction of Soddham, and Gommorrah, and also the complete destruction of the entire world, except for those aboard the Ark.

I can't really understand, thus far, in how those reading or writing the Bible come to the conclusion that God is so great and Satan even exists. Again, if there is a mention of Satan in Genesis that I missed, I would appreciate someone pointing it out to me.

B.
That's because it is not there. See this thread http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21952&highlight=created+evil and it is all something that someone read into it and then taught as the truth. If people actually read the bible they would see that it is all gods fault because he created all of it. And he kicked Adam and Eve out because now they had knowledge. I don't buy into this stuff but here are a few passages.

Genesis:
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


and it is gods fault because:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So many people attribute evil things to satan but it is god that made it happen. If you believe.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
ladylazarus said:
If the worst thing Satan did to us was makes us eat from the tree of KNOWLEDGE, I really don't mind.

Satan and God are excuses used by infantile, weak-minded people who are too pathetic to find meaning in their own lives.
Although a tiny bit strident, and the fact that I would have worded this differently, I agree 100% with ladlazarus. The simple fact of the matter is the bulk of my fellow man, is not especially well endowed in the grey matter department. It IS a sad, but simple truth. I wish that it were not so.
 
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
This brings up a point I was wanting to discuss with some of my learned brethren. Exactly where in the Bible does it say that the serpent was Satan? I recently began reading the Bible again, my plan is to read it from beginning to end. I haven't really read the Bible that closely for a few years, so when I was reading it this time around, I was a bit surprised at some of the things I read, or more importantly, some of the things I did not read.

Bible starts off with the story of creation, six literal days, then on the 7th day, God was tired and took a break. Create Adam who named all living things. Adam is lonely, so God makes him fall asleep, takes his rib, creates a woman from him.

Everything is hunky doorey until the serpent comes along and tempts Eve with the apple. Except there is no mention of an apple, per se. Nor could I find any reference in Genesis which says that the serpent was possessed by the Devil, or was the Devil in serpent form, or anything of the like.

Is it that preists, and preachers over the centuries have just assumed the snake was possessed by the Devil, or was the Devil in serpent form?

There are many other questions raised by my recent reading of Genesis, but this one seems most pertinent at the moment.

And to answer the question posed to start this thread, it seems to me, that if God's purpose is for humans to be happy, then He is falling well short, as there seems to be a deluge of misery in this world. If God's purpose is that we should suffer and die miserably here so that more souls make it into the afterlife, then He is doing a bang-up job.

As far as Satan. I don't really hear about him too much anymore. I think he was used to scare ignorant peasants into going to Church and forking over 10% of their earnings to the Church. But if Satan's plan is to bring misery to the world, he is going over like gangbusters.

Tho, back to my current reading of Genesis, I thus far have yet to see any mention of Satan, that I can recall. And if he was mentioned but I missed it, I can't see anywhere that he, Satan, has specifically murdered anyone, tho I have noticed that thus far God has killed a couple of people specifically, one for refusing to impregnate a woman who was not his wife. There are also mentions of the total destruction of Soddham, and Gommorrah, and also the complete destruction of the entire world, except for those aboard the Ark.

I can't really understand, thus far, in how those reading or writing the Bible come to the conclusion that God is so great and Satan even exists. Again, if there is a mention of Satan in Genesis that I missed, I would appreciate someone pointing it out to me.

B.
The fact is that each church is simply an interpritation of the bible. Nowhere in the bible does it ever say that 'this church is the true church, believe in it and be saved', it simply tells us to have faith in what the bible says.

Everyone assumes that the serpant is Satan, as they are taught that this is implied. However, it could also easily be interprited to be symbolic of temptation itself, or merely a completely different entity. After all, I don't recall it ever saying exactly when Satan rebeled against God, and out of my own views I would gladly fight with Satan to abolish the eternal torment subjected by hell if it existed.

The view that Satan is a form of daemon and actualy tortures souls in hell is one simply brought up by popular view and Dante's writings, hell (which is another lose interpritation of things based on text that was never in the original scriptures) is supposed to be Satan's prison, where he is punished for rebeling against God (who is apparently all forgiving and loving), it is in his best intrest to destroy hell and not suffer.

Satan never kills anyone in the Bible unless: a) He is asked to by God.
b) He is to do something that is symbolic of his evil.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
It seems that in the race for efficiency if we are looking for corruption, destruction or evil we are bound to find it. News media’s often lead with their scandalous material first often saving the reports of consideration and worthiness as “fluff pieces” towards the end of the show. If Satan and all his ways are what some people are on the lookout for, then GOD is relegated to faithful back drop with the designation of a batter who will hit the ball to bring everyone home.

Though I should have held a poll it seems that Satan is in the lead with GOD trailing second with His stance of " my best work is yet to come" proclamation.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
This brings up a point I was wanting to discuss with some of my learned brethren. Exactly where in the Bible does it say that the serpent was Satan? I recently began reading the Bible again, my plan is to read it from beginning to end. I haven't really read the Bible that closely for a few years, so when I was reading it this time around, I was a bit surprised at some of the things I read, or more importantly, some of the things I did not read.

Bible starts off with the story of creation, six literal days, then on the 7th day, God was tired and took a break. Create Adam who named all living things. Adam is lonely, so God makes him fall asleep, takes his rib, creates a woman from him.

Everything is hunky doorey until the serpent comes along and tempts Eve with the apple. Except there is no mention of an apple, per se. Nor could I find any reference in Genesis which says that the serpent was possessed by the Devil, or was the Devil in serpent form, or anything of the like.

Is it that preists, and preachers over the centuries have just assumed the snake was possessed by the Devil, or was the Devil in serpent form?

There are many other questions raised by my recent reading of Genesis, but this one seems most pertinent at the moment.

And to answer the question posed to start this thread, it seems to me, that if God's purpose is for humans to be happy, then He is falling well short, as there seems to be a deluge of misery in this world. If God's purpose is that we should suffer and die miserably here so that more souls make it into the afterlife, then He is doing a bang-up job.

As far as Satan. I don't really hear about him too much anymore. I think he was used to scare ignorant peasants into going to Church and forking over 10% of their earnings to the Church. But if Satan's plan is to bring misery to the world, he is going over like gangbusters.

Tho, back to my current reading of Genesis, I thus far have yet to see any mention of Satan, that I can recall. And if he was mentioned but I missed it, I can't see anywhere that he, Satan, has specifically murdered anyone, tho I have noticed that thus far God has killed a couple of people specifically, one for refusing to impregnate a woman who was not his wife. There are also mentions of the total destruction of Soddham, and Gommorrah, and also the complete destruction of the entire world, except for those aboard the Ark.

I can't really understand, thus far, in how those reading or writing the Bible come to the conclusion that God is so great and Satan even exists. Again, if there is a mention of Satan in Genesis that I missed, I would appreciate someone pointing it out to me.

B.
The idea of Satan pre-dates the New Testament. It is present in the writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, where Satan takes on the familiar personal characteristics (eg, Satan is not an idea, but a character in a story). The connection of Satan to the serpant is in the pseudepigraphal book of Enoch as well as the NT book called Revelation.

Revelation 20:2
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
angellous_evangellous said:
The idea of Satan pre-dates the New Testament. It is present in the writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, where Satan takes on the familiar personal characteristics (eg, Satan is not an idea, but a character in a story). The connection of Satan to the serpant is in the pseudepigraphal book of Enoch as well as the NT book called Revelation.

Revelation 20:2
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
If I am not mistaken this scripture points to the belief of the 1000 year peace that God is going to enforce only to unleash the devil to “employ” him again to mislead the true believers. If Satan didn’t do a good job the first time why hire him again?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
cardero said:
If I am not mistaken this scripture points to the belief of the 1000 year peace that God is going to enforce only to unleash the devil to “employ” him again to mislead the true believers. If Satan didn’t do a good job the first time why hire him again?
I can't help you out on this one. To be perfectly honest, I don't understand the meaning of this passage, and I don't think that anyone else knows either. Personally, I don't think that Revelation belongs in the canon because no one has ever understood it.

My point was simply that Satan is connected to the snake in Genesis because of this verse.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Why doesn't God talk to us? Guide us? Or at least ask me how I am doing when I'm having a bad day.

Now I believe that our choice is paramount. There can be no interference. We must decide to sin no more and follow through because it is a moral action. God cannot interfere because once He does we are no longer responsible for anything we do or anything that happens. We can simply say "Why didn't God prevent it?"

But it's tough having faith amidst the void. A gigantic universe with everything separated by trillions of miles. Space enough so that each system is isolated enough so the beings can choose.

Choice is the driving force behind the creation of the universe.
 
Lady Moon said:
Some stupid Christians invented Satan to explain why they themselves have evil tendencies. If Christians didn't have evil tendencies, they wouldn't have had to invent Satan to explain those tendencies. Paganism has no Satan, and doesn't need one.

Beeeeep! Wrong. Christians did not by any means invent Satan, especially to blame themselves for wrong doing. To believe that is to admit little or no knowledge of biblical Christianity.

Satan = "ha satan" (Hebrew) and "satanas" (Greek) This word in both languages means "adversary." It is used of the "malak YHVH" (Angel of the LORD) in the story of Balaam and his donkey. It is also used of Judas in the Gospels to refer to his act of betrayal of Christ.

In Job, Satan is actually an angel of God's court who roams the earth looking for someone to accuse. He chooses Job.

Satan is a tempter and tester. He is there to work both against God and on God's behalf, testing God's children and drawing away those who would corrupt God's purposes. He exists as the ultimate example of pride and contempt and serves as an antithesis to God to demonstrate God's goodness. Without an absolute antithesis, there would be no measure of God's absolute perfection. Satan exists to reveal the fullness of God's glory.

That, my friend, is the true purpose of Satan.

Brandon
 
angellous_evangellous said:
Personally, I don't think that Revelation belongs in the canon because no one has ever understood it.

Ouch, this comment hurts. First, you're discounting much of the council of Nicea and the fathers who met there. Secondly, you're making an unsubstantiated blanket statement regarding a piece of scripture that has been understood well by quite a number of people. The problem is that a lot of shoddy scholarship has led to many misinterpretations that have led the lay-Christian astray.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound harsh, but I get antsy when people start trying to mess with the canon.

Brandon
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Of a Happy Ending said:
Beeeeep! Wrong. Christians did not by any means invent Satan, especially to blame themselves for wrong doing. To believe that is to admit little or no knowledge of biblical Christianity.

Satan = "ha satan" (Hebrew) and "satanas" (Greek) This word in both languages means "adversary." It is used of the "malak YHVH" (Angel of the LORD) in the story of Balaam and his donkey. It is also used of Judas in the Gospels to refer to his act of betrayal of Christ.

In Job, Satan is actually an angel of God's court who roams the earth looking for someone to accuse. He chooses Job.

Satan is a tempter and tester. He is there to work both against God and on God's behalf, testing God's children and drawing away those who would corrupt God's purposes. He exists as the ultimate example of pride and contempt and serves as an antithesis to God to demonstrate God's goodness. Without an absolute antithesis, there would be no measure of God's absolute perfection. Satan exists to reveal the fullness of God's glory.

That, my friend, is the true purpose of Satan.

Brandon
Well it could be all of that. But it also could be that Satan is not any more real than Darth Vader. They are both written about, but I never met either one of them. Where was Satan during the time when Egypt was the dominate culture? They were worshipping Ra and had a whole pantheon of dieties. Where was Satan then? I don't recall him being mentioned in my Early Western Civ. class.

The fact remains there is no more and no less evidence for the existence of Satan, or God than there is for Santa, The Easter Bunny, or Ra for that matter. If you choose to beleive in any of these, it is, of course, your choice, but not everyone buys into this stuff.

B.
 
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Well it could be all of that. But it also could be that Satan is not any more real than Darth Vader. They are both written about, but I never met either one of them. Where was Satan during the time when Egypt was the dominate culture? They were worshipping Ra and had a whole pantheon of dieties. Where was Satan then? I don't recall him being mentioned in my Early Western Civ. class.

The fact remains there is no more and no less evidence for the existence of Satan, or God than there is for Santa, The Easter Bunny, or Ra for that matter. If you choose to beleive in any of these, it is, of course, your choice, but not everyone buys into this stuff.

B.

Here's a bit of problem though. I was addressing those who regard the Bible as having at least some authority. If you don't, then I guess most of what I will say here will be totally antithetical to your sense of reason, since I'm basing everything I beleive on an error-filled book.

Brandon
 

may

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
I can't help you out on this one. To be perfectly honest, I don't understand the meaning of this passage, and I don't think that anyone else knows either. Personally, I don't think that Revelation belongs in the canon because no one has ever understood it.

My point was simply that Satan is connected to the snake in Genesis because of this verse.
i would say that at the end of the thousand years we will be in the same postion as Adam and Eve were before satan got them to follow him .so when satan is let loose for a little while , revelation 20;3


he will try again in some way but it seems that he will not be allowed to rule the world again , as he has been allowed to do now ,(1 john 5;19)because he will be totally destroyed for ever .(revelation 20;10) but it will certainly sort and prove who the faithful ones are because they will not be led along with him.. then Jehovah God can get on with his original purpose for man . all we have ever been part of is the world under satans control . just think of the great things that could be accomplished when the world is not under satans power any longer
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
God does not need to trick us. Those are human traits.

Satan has been removed and his transgressions will be repaired once his final judgement is decided. But in the mean time don't give Satan more credit than he deserves.

 

may

Well-Known Member
Super Universe said:
God does not need to trick us. Those are human traits.

Satan has been removed and his transgressions will be repaired once his final judgement is decided. But in the mean time don't give Satan more credit than he deserves.

yes i agree Jehovah God does not trick us, but the opposer of God does .the bible tells us that satan will be destroyed forever in the future
 

jazzalta

Member
To the skeptic, I would recommend: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com. Please read with an open mind and try not to convince yourself that the web page is of the devil. This is an interesting read, and tries to point out the contradictions and other errancy in the Bible albeit in a sometimes satirical or humorous way. To me, if the Bible fails to stand up to critical examination, the whole Judeo/Christian belief is void.
 
Top