God and Science agree -why don't we?

[Luminous]

It has been concluded that we are all agnostic. and that, if anything, God is an atheist.

 

[Etritonakin]

With the bible you not only have a calculation of 6000-year-old for the world as we know it, but you have the nonsense about the creation taking place in 6-day. And then this nonsense about light being created that give day and night, 3 days before the creation of sun and moon. Vegetation appearing in a snap of finger in just one day, and all the animals and human created in an instance of one day, on the 6th day.

The bible completely ignore the law of physics, ignore the law of nature (biology, not just evolution) and ignore simple astronomy that even children today know that such things are impossible.

If you think for one moment that science deals in perfection, then you have absolutely no understanding what is science.

Many of your assertions about the bible are incorrect, but I won't get into that now.

I understand your skepticism, but even with our own advances in "science",
what was once impossible is now possible to us. What once took great amounts of time now do not, etc.. etc..

You write from your own perspective. These things are impossible TO YOU.
The laws of physics do not need to be broken for miraculous things to happen -but manipulated on a level which exceeds our present abilities.

Where once we would have been at the mercy of the laws of physics -and be hit by a big ol' rock from space, now we have a greater ability to perceive this sort of threat before it occurs, but enough understanding to create devices such as the "gravity tractor" -to slowly tow the ol' rocks out of the way -or should we have not ignored simple astronomy???????

The fact that you don't understand how it's done doesn't mean it can't be done!

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

I'm out of here for a while -y'all take care!

 

[tumbleweed41]

Where once we would have been at the mercy of the laws of physics -and be hit by a big ol' rock from space, now we have a greater ability to perceive this sort of threat before it occurs, but enough understanding to create devices such as the "gravity tractor" -to slowly tow the ol' rocks out of the way -or should we have not ignored simple astronomy???????

Even if we perceive the threat, we are still completely at the mercy of of the laws that govern our universe. We can use them to our advantage, which is why advancements in science are so important, but we cannot break those laws any more than a deity could/can.

(Gravity tractors?)

 

[REASON_236]

The true God and true science cannot be refuted.

Men, however, often just make stuff up.

"Creationists" have made wild assertions based on misunderstanding of scripture.

Scientists have denied the existence of God without scientific proof -but by their ability to disprove what some creationists believe.

What is written in the bible cannot be proven false by science -and any (real -actually proven) scientific discovery certainly cannot be made false by what is written in the bible.

Both "sides" make false assumptions and assertions.

God and science are correct -we are just newbs arguing with each other.

(Slightly off-topic, but when the "science-minded" try to disprove the biblical flood, they often begin with ruling out that it was possible (not 100% scientific, but understandable) -and looking for things they think are possible which would give reason for the "myth"-and finding evidence for that... or try to disprove false assumptions about the bible -which may have been asserted by errant creationists...

Scientists:
My question is (and I sincerely want to understand)....assuming it is possible -such a miraculous mega-flash-flood (humor me here).... What would be the scientific evidence left by what was written in the bible -based on what science knows (not what creationists claim) to be the state of the earth/people/flora/fauna between ...say ...6,000 to 2,000 BC?

If it actually rained for 40 days and 40 nights -and the springs in the ground put forth water -and God made available enough water -so that waters did not subside for 150 days -what would be the scientific evidence thereof?? If it all happened at once -everywhere -would things really have changed much? If so, how? Rather than flowing from one area to another, what would a simultaneous flood everywhere do?
Note that a height of 18 cubits (about 22 feet) is specified in the bible -which is apparently 22 feet over the highest mountains given the language in the bible -and the fact that the ark is recorded as having come to rest on "the mountains of Ararat" -though not necessarily at the highest peak.

And...
What would such an occurrence do today?

the problem with both believers in science is that they think that whatever science reached today will still be a fact forever.. (remember that the earth was flat.... at least we thought that)

the problem with religious people is that they think that they understand the scriptures whether being the Torah, Bible, Quran, etc. they believe that they understand them fully and that whatever is written there is to be taken as we understand it with our simple minds... remember that these books were written thousands of years ago and in this period of time languages evolve and meanings of terms change, so our understanding of the scriptures can never be full unless taught to us by the one who wrote them..

i think that no one should make any conclusions in science or in religion because i believe that in both fields, humanity is still scratching the surface and we have along way to go

 

[PolyHedral]

My question is (and I sincerely want to understand)....assuming it is possible -such a miraculous mega-flash-flood (humor me here).... What would be the scientific evidence left by what was written in the bible -based on what science knows (not what creationists claim) to be the state of the earth/people/flora/fauna between ...say ...6,000 to 2,000 BC?

There would have been a mass extinction approximatly 4-10,000 years ago. AFAIK, no such thing has happened. This is ignoring the massive violation of conservation of energy that would have had to happen.

the problem with both believers in science is that they think that whatever science reached today will still be a fact forever

The idea that people believed that the earth was flat is a myth. The Ancient Greeks knew it was round. (They even had a fairly accurate guess at the circumference.)

 

[Luminous]

The problem with people is their continued denial of agnosticism.

 

[gnostic]

I understand your skepticism, but even with our own advances in "science",
what was once impossible is now possible to us. What once took great amounts of time now do not, etc.. etc..

Sure, I believe in advances in science has made great strides.

However, these "advances" are not breaking the laws of physics. They are testimonies of man's intelligence and ingenuity to use technology, and not because some of mythical beings say "it is so". Man is constantly learning, century after century. Computers were originally large and slow, and couldn't do much, but now they are smarter and smaller, because our knowledge have increased, and refinement on the technology are continually made. That's what they called "progress".

None of these advances have anything to do with God or gods.

Where once we would have been at the mercy of the laws of physics -and be hit by a big ol' rock from space, now we have a greater ability to perceive this sort of threat before it occurs, but enough understanding to create devices such as the "gravity tractor" -to slowly tow the ol' rocks out of the way -or should we have not ignored simple astronomy???????

Gravity Tractor? You are now confusing science with science fiction.

Many of your assertions about the bible are incorrect, but I won't get into that now.

You write from your own perspective. These things are impossible TO YOU.
The laws of physics do not need to be broken for miraculous things to happen -but manipulated on a level which exceeds our present abilities.

The fact that you don't understand how it's done doesn't mean it can't be done!

Then you believe that it is VERY POSSIBLE that serpent (Genesis) or a donkey (Numbers) can talk. I supposed they can talk, given that I have seen the some movies of Francis the talking mule, or in Harry Potter.

I know that parrot or other birds can mimic what people might say, but they certainly don't understand what they mimic. I have seen such birds repeat human speech, but as to donkey and serpent/snake, no.

 

[Etritonakin]

We have all the tech we need for a gravity tractor -and we already have plans to test it. A gravity tractor is essentially a space vehicle which has the capability of being positioned near an asteroid. Its own mass would exert a gravitational pull on the asteroid, just as the asteroid would do to it. The craft could then use this force to slowly pull the asteroid from its original course.
Not a last-minute fix, but it is completely feasible given enough warning.

I'm not saying a deity could change any truly unbreakble laws of physics -just that God has the power to manipulate what he created on a level which is impossible to us.

We cannot manipulate certain things due to the construction of our bodies. We must use our bodies to directly manipulate. However, what we can manipulate can then be used to indirectly manipulate what we once could not. Our eyes cannot see certain things, but by manipulation, we can create things which allow our eyes to see what was once impossible to see.
Some peoples' eyes see more than others -and some peoples' ears hear more than others.
If our eyes were different, we would see differently, etc... Some animals sense heat -others navigate with sound, etc... These things are impossible to us naturally.

God's "body" allows him to have a direct interface with what he created -not limited by the necessity of using hands of flesh, but able to affect change directly by will -fiat ("Let there be...")... It is not necessary to break any laws of physics, but, as their creator, he knows a lot more about what is changeable and what is not -and can alter things we can not -or don't believe we ever could.

Stopping the rotation of the earth without consequence is not impossible, but it would require a great deal of power. It would not require breaking the laws of physics, but using them in a way that is merely impossible to us. Definitely a "strange matter".

We may one day have such a body....
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[Etritonakin]

Then you believe that it is VERY POSSIBLE that serpent (Genesis) or a donkey (Numbers) can talk. I supposed they can talk, given that I have seen the some movies of Francis the talking mule, or in Harry Potter.

I know that parrot or other birds can mimic what people might say, but they certainly don't understand what they mimic. I have seen such birds repeat human speech, but as to donkey and serpent/snake, no.

The serpent wasn't an actual snake, but Satan.

The donkey, however -no way -totally impossible for a donkey to talk....
but they can certainly be made to talk.
Even we could do that, if so inclined.
We could make it happen with enough understanding of the donkey -and a way to interface it with electronics.
We can make the blind see with electronics -why couldn't we make a donkey talk???
We can make dead frogs jiggle and what-not... why cant we move a donkey's lips, tongue and vocal chords???

 

[tumbleweed41]

This is not "God and Science Agree." This is "God has the ability to do seemingly imposable things, and maybe we will someday get the technology to do so also"

Pure speculation.

 

[PhosphorylatedHypnoMonkey]

Rather than a massive uniform layer of deposits such as would occur with huge meteor strike -where dust/ash/whatever settled across the globe in a neat layer -would not such a quick, massive flood and abatement (150 days total)
Remember, we're talking about filling the earth with water above the mountains -and draining -it all within 150 days. A 15-30 feet-per-hour rise in water level (15+ if the water was above Ararat -30 if above Everest)- worldwide -simultaneously -assuming the end of the 40 days and nights of rain was the beginning of the abatement of the flood.

The bible was written by scholars,
"The Bible was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 different authors. The Bible is a compilation of 66 separate books".

When the flood was written about it was most likely the flooding of a particular area.
If i were to rediculously postulate i'd say either say:
A. there wasn't a flood, but to scare "evil" non-believers
B. Some natural disaster i.e Megatsunami caused by a meteor or tectonic plate movement.
C. Similar to 'A' but more of a poetical, metaphorical meaning behind it.

Looking into the genetics, etc.... too, but want to concentrate on the geology, etc.. at first, as there are seemingly fewer variables to consider (not to mention I'm a genetics noob -ok, I'm a geology/climate/weather/whatever noob, too, but it seems a bit more understandable).

You can't focus on one side of the arguement, thats called bias .

As PW said there would be a MASSIVE genetic bottleneck (which means that most of the genetic information for blue eyes, tall people or brown hair would be eradicated and we probably would have evolved into a different species as a result).

 

[gnostic]

The serpent wasn't an actual snake, but Satan.

Said who?

 

[Etritonakin]

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

etc...... not complete, but research it if you are interested....

 

[Etritonakin]

As PW said there would be a MASSIVE genetic bottleneck (which means that most of the genetic information for blue eyes, tall people or brown hair would be eradicated and we probably would have evolved into a different species as a result).

The eradication of such is not even consistent with evolution. If blue eyes were a random mutation initially, what would prevent them from re-occurring?

 

[gnostic]

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

etc...... not complete, but research it if you are interested....

I am aware what the Christians think of Satan, so quoting the Revelation is only relevant to the Christians.

I am not convince with the identification of the serpent in Eden with Satan, your Devil.

As to your quote from Ezekiel 28, I have several things to say about it.

1st of all, the cherub was clearly identified with the King of Tyre, as a metaphor for the king.

2nd, it doesn't mention the serpent, let alone Satan, in any part of Ezekiel's verses, from 11 to 19. The only thing mention remotely connecting Ezekiel verses about Eden is the cherub or cherubim.

Forgive if I am wrong, but the guardian cherub could be the every one that kept Adam and Eve out of the garden - you know, the one with a flaming sword:

So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Have you forgotten about the cherubim with sword?

 

[Thales of Ga.]

What is the evidence for that Garden as scholars find it non-existent, just a mere metaphor, which metaphor I'd find nonsensical, because there never was original sin1 Agnostic Michael Ruse errs in finding evolution and theology compatible in rationalizing original sin and such!

 

[Etritonakin]

I am aware what the Christians think of Satan, so quoting the Revelation is only relevant to the Christians.

I am not convince with the identification of the serpent in Eden with Satan, your Devil.

As to your quote from Ezekiel 28, I have several things to say about it.

1st of all, the cherub was clearly identified with the King of Tyre, as a metaphor for the king.

2nd, it doesn't mention the serpent, let alone Satan, in any part of Ezekiel's verses, from 11 to 19. The only thing mention remotely connecting Ezekiel verses about Eden is the cherub or cherubim.

Forgive if I am wrong, but the guardian cherub could be the every one that kept Adam and Eve out of the garden - you know, the one with a flaming sword:



Have you forgotten about the cherubim with sword?

You have every right not to be convinced

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God and Science agree -why don't we?

Simple.

There is one science and many gods.

 

[Etritonakin]

What is the evidence for that Garden as scholars find it non-existent, just a mere metaphor, which metaphor I'd find nonsensical, because there never was original sin1 Agnostic Michael Ruse errs in finding evolution and theology compatible in rationalizing original sin and such!

The general area of "the garden" is given in scripture....

Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. \
Gen 2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
Gen 2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Gen 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
Gen 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

However, the location is not as important as its state.

Adam and Eve were obviously not the first humanoids to ever inhibit earth. Science refers to those before Adam as "man", but the bible uses "man" to refer to those beginning with Adam -who was created directly rather than being descended from others.

Those humanoids before Adam were not given laws by God -and where there is no law there can be no sin, because sin is the transgression of the law.

Because they were given laws by God, sin became possible. Those before them could do the same things -steal, fornicate, etc..., but were not held accountable. Beginning with Adam, man had the potential to live forever -not so with any humanoids that came before. The laws, statutes and judgments man is given by God are somewhat related to their present state -and some will not apply once immortal -such as the one concerning adultery. If we do not marry, we cannot commit adultery in that manner -though we will metaphorically be married to Christ, and will not stray from that relationship.

The purpose of the giving of the law is to prepare us to live forever -to inhabit eternity without possibility of conflict or catastrophe.

It cannot be denied that universal adherance by humans to even the latter of the ten commandments would make this present world a paradise...

...and that is exactly what made Eden a paradise. Adam and Eve initially obeyed God, and all went well.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was, technically, an actual tree. It was a tree that produced good food. The thing that made it the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, however, was the simple fact that God said not to eat of it.
Eating thereof did give Adam and Eve knowledge they did not possess before, but it was not pleasant. It made them "wise" in a way -as the serpent said it would -it opened their eyes, so to speak -but it caused them to see and know evil -whereas before they knew only good.
Satan was repeating his own thoughts which led him to disobey God. He lied to them about not dying -as they did die (if they had obeyed they could have lived forever) -but they had become like God in a way -knowing good and evil. God knew good and evil -he created a perfect system and knew what would sustain it and what would destroy it. However, man DID evil -not just knew it. It may seem arrogant of God to say that only obedience to him was right -but that is simply the truth. No other has what it takes. Without God, we travel to ruin.

So -though God cast them out of the place, they cast themselves out of the state -just as Satan had removed himself from obedience -led a third of the angels to do the same -and is now restrained by God from doing all his will. Satan is only able to do that which God allows.

We are not held accountable for the sins of Adam and Eve -we are not guilty because they disobeyed. We are guilty when we disobey, and are held accountable for our own actions. So "original sin", as some understand it, is not the truth. HOWEVER, our actons and examples do affect others -and can make it more likely for them to sin or not sin.

God allowed Satan to communicate with Adam and Eve -he could have prevented it -and allowed it for a purpose.

God knew before even Lucifer was created (originally obedient) that giving beings creativity could possibly lead them to disobey by their own decision -so he planned for it.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Now, In order to completely remove any possibility of sin -and make certain that eternity is inhabited in peace and happiness, we are building an experience base from which to determine that God is indeed correct. We were created ignorant -and are learning. We were allowed to CHOOSE sin -so that we might experience it -and come to the conclusion that God is God -that he is correct and should be obeyed.
Humanity is about to learn that disobedience to him leads to them destroying all life on earth -and he will stop it just before it is complete -then he will send Christ to rule on earth....

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Etritonakin]

God and Science agree -why don't we?

Simple.

There is one science and many gods.

Actually, scienTISTS often don't agree with each other -and there is one true God, but many false gods and religions.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.