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God and slavery?

Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
Jeremy Mason said:
Yes, but one needs to gleen the message of love, integrity and equality for all people as Jesus thoroughly exemplified.
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I see....I actually agree with that whole-heartedly. I have a minor qualm, which is that i.m.o. we would glean messages of love, integrity and equality, more reliably by focusing our attention on the best books of every age, rather than the Bible (although this is not to say we should *ignore* the Bible....quite the contrary). But I agree with you on the whole. (What do you think about this qualm?)

My apologies for attacking the more traditional Christian view and projecting it onto you. That was unfair and presumptuous of me. :eek:

Jeremy said:
First and for most, I strongly do not condone genocide.
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Of course you don't. That's not the issue.

Jeremy said:
When I read such Scripture it is an extremely difficult issue, including Hell, for me to fathom.
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It was hard for me to fathom as well. I can't speak for you, but the reason it was hard for me to fathom was because the only possibilities I was considering were possibilities that assumed it was true. If you let go of that restriction, the answer is staring you in the face: it seems unfathomable because it isn't true. It's mythology. We can still learn from the good lessons, be riveted by the story....but now we can think honestly about, and reject, the bad lessons without furrowing our brows, and without making excuses for genocide.

Jeremy said:
That is why I said it is up to Christians to follow Jesus' example and not the generations of the past. Jesus led no military campaign and even took issue with Peter for striking/severing the Roman guards ear, and immediately restored the guard to his prior condition. This change from an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek is paramount when discussing OT and NT theology. The OT was very cause and effect, where NT is cause and reflect.
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Well, that's certainly an admirable interpretation as far as it goes.

My qualm (and I emphasize that it is a qualm) with this is that we can do even better. We have 2,000 years worth of literature and knowledge that do not require us to ever make excuses for genocide--as you did in your last post--in order to justify the Golden Rule. No, the Golden Rule is not a progression from eye-to-an-eye, it was the better rule *all along*. Eye-for-an-eye and genocide was *never* the right thing, even when it was widespread and even when people *believed* God ordered it. Furthermore, we have accumulated knowledge and wisdom that makes Jesus' message (progressive as it was for the time) basically obsolete. We have *even better* and more persuasive books which enjoin us to follow the Golden Rule and hash out *specifically* what this means in contemporary society (democracy, civil rights, free speech, equality and tolerance, etc.) These books, not the Bible, are responsible for most of the progress we have had in the last 2,000 years.

I'm sure you disagree but do you think my opinion is at least reasonable?
 
Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
Rolling_Stone said:
Yes. It is. Your values presume the reality of a good above and beyond human likes and dislikes. Your belief in a good presumes there is something more to life than what your senses tell you, something that is inconsistent with the concept of an uncaring universe and you are undoubtedly troubled by it. Your mind is in a whirl.
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I'm undoubtedly troubled that you and Jeremy and many well-intentioned people would excuse genocide. I heard Noam Chomsky once say that the occasional Hitler's and Stalin's who popped up didn't disturb him as much as the legions of people who ever enable such figures by their limitless capacity to excuse atrocity. I think I understand what he meant.

More to your point, I do believe in a good that--and I'm choosing my words carefully here--transcends the moment-to-moment like and dislikes of human beings. But it is still grounded on human happiness and suffering. I absolutely do share the sentiment of your statement, "there is more to life than what your senses tell you". But this is not inconsistent with an uncaring universe, because the uncaring universe contains caring human beings. Whether the "universe" cares about our human experience is irrelevant; i.m.o. you and I can no more stop caring about ourselves and each other than we can stop being human.

And if some human being commands us to commit atrocities on behalf of an Almighty Father, then he is an evil, barbaric tyrant. So is the Almighty Father, if he exists. The very idea is totalitarian and must be exposed for the wickedness that it is.
 
R

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Mr Spinkles said:
I'm undoubtedly troubled that you and Jeremy and many well-intentioned people would excuse genocide. I heard Noam Chomsky once say that the occasional Hitler's and Stalin's who popped up didn't disturb him as much as the legions of people who ever enable such figures by their limitless capacity to excuse atrocity. I think I understand what he meant.

More to your point, I do believe in a good that--and I'm choosing my words carefully here--transcends the moment-to-moment like and dislikes of human beings. But it is still grounded on human happiness and suffering. I absolutely do share the sentiment of your statement, "there is more to life than what your senses tell you". But this is not inconsistent with an uncaring universe, because the uncaring universe contains caring human beings. Whether the "universe" cares about our human experience is irrelevant; i.m.o. you and I can no more stop caring about ourselves and each other than we can stop being human.

And if some human being commands us to commit atrocities on behalf of an Almighty Father, then he is an evil, barbaric tyrant. So is the Almighty Father, if he exists. The very idea is totalitarian and must be exposed for the wickedness that it is.
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Your sense of values acknowledge God even as your intellect denies him.:yes:
 
Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
emiliano said:
In what way is slavery a vile atrocity?
Are/were bad masters the only kind there is/was?
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Of course not. I happen to be a wonderful master. In fact, I could use some more labor, so I think I'll enslave you if you don't mind, or even if you do.
 
E

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Mr Spinkles said:
Of course not. I happen to be a wonderful master. In fact, I could use some more labor, so I think I'll enslave you if you don't mind, or even if you do.
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See how there are different kinds of masters! Now the master of all is God and He will guide me to a Good master, in fact He already have, so thanks for the offer, my employer is the vehicle that God uses to bless me with his abundant provision, I like my job and is a fulfilling one, not only I get my sustenance from it I get job satisfaction from it , I hope the God guide some other to you, since you are such a good master He will use you to bless some one for sure. He is omniscient He knows what kind of master you will be.
 
E

emiliano

Well-Known Member
kai said:
what ?-------------- have you been drinking?
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No, what about you? What are you on? Or is it genetic?
I do not abuse alcohol. I don’t smoke and don’t indulge in excesses, my master recommended that I don’t, so what He provides is more than enough, I don’t live my life in envy of those that manage their resources better and can be masters/ employer of others.
Psa 37:1 A Psalm of David. Do not fret yourself with evil doers; and do not be envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2 For they shall soon wither like the grass; and fade as the green herb.
I live a pretty happy life, how is your comrade?

 
Jeremy Mason

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Mr Spinkles said:
I see....I actually agree with that whole-heartedly. I have a minor qualm, which is that i.m.o. we would glean messages of love, integrity and equality, more reliably by focusing our attention on the best books of every age, rather than the Bible (although this is not to say we should *ignore* the Bible....quite the contrary). But I agree with you on the whole. (What do you think about this qualm?)
Click to expand...

I understand that there are modern ethics books and have read a few to say the least. I feel knowledge and understanding are not confined to the Bible alone. Perhaps you can suggest some good reading. I'm reading the Bhagavad Gita.

Mr Spinkles said:
My apologies for attacking the more traditional Christian view and projecting it onto you. That was unfair and presumptuous of me. :eek:
Click to expand...

No worries.

Mr Spinkles said:
My qualm (and I emphasize that it is a qualm) with this is that we can do even better. We have 2,000 years worth of literature and knowledge that do not require us to ever make excuses for genocide--as you did in your last post--in order to justify the Golden Rule. No, the Golden Rule is not a progression from eye-to-an-eye, it was the better rule *all along*. Eye-for-an-eye and genocide was *never* the right thing, even when it was widespread and even when people *believed* God ordered it. Furthermore, we have accumulated knowledge and wisdom that makes Jesus' message (progressive as it was for the time) basically obsolete. We have *even better* and more persuasive books which enjoin us to follow the Golden Rule and hash out *specifically* what this means in contemporary society (democracy, civil rights, free speech, equality and tolerance, etc.) These books, not the Bible, are responsible for most of the progress we have had in the last 2,000 years.

I'm sure you disagree but do you think my opinion is at least reasonable?
Click to expand...

While I admit that the Bible has it's limitations (and Jesus said it as well) the message of, love your neighbor as yourself, cuts to the core quite eloquently. Something a child can understand. Don't get me wrong, IMO, it's important to welcome the wisdom of today, just as long as we don't forget the hard earned lessons of yesterday.
 
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Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
Jeremy Mason said:
I understand that there are modern ethics books and have read a few to say the least. I feel knowledge and understanding are not confined to the Bible alone. Perhaps you can suggest some good reading. I'm reading the Bhagavad Gita.
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Do you recommend it? I'm reading Future Jihad by Walid Phares. I can't say I recommend it at this point, but I'm only halfway through it.

Jeremy said:
While I admit that the Bible has it's limitations (and Jesus said it as well) the message of, love your neighbor as yourself, cuts to the core quite eloquently. Something a child can understand. Don't get me wrong, IMO, it's important to welcome the wisdom of today, just as long as we don't forget the hard earned lessons of yesterday.
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Well I can see that my best efforts to find uncommon ground are futile. :)
 
B

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Jeremy Mason said:
As with you, I'm not far along to make any real conclusions.

The truth has set us free. Thanks for an intelligent and thought provoking discussion. I look forward to reading your posts in the furture Mr. Spinkles. :)
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+++++++++++++++++++

What truth has set us free? What have I missed? I thought only vindication by the Law would set us free.

Ben :confused:
 
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