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God and the idea that he's timeless

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
For many years, I've been an atheist who finds arguments for God fascinating. Lately I've been reading more about the various cosmological arguments. Part of the foundation for those arguments is the idea that the natural world cannot have an infinite past because of the assumed impossibility of an infinite regress. The impossibility is either expressed as something that is intuitively understood to be true or examples are given to show how if the past was infinite, we could never, for example, arrive at this point in time, because that would imply that an infinite amount of time had to have passed in order to arrive at this point. And since it is impossible for an infinite amount of anything to have transpired, the natural world cannot have an infinite past.

The argument then proceeds to assert something else must exist that is other than or outside of the natural world. And it is further asserted that this thing must, almost by definition, be infinite/timeless/non-temporal. And that thing ( which of course ends up being God based on further arguments and reasoning) is supposed to solve the conundrum of the infinite regress.

But...I just can't figure it out. How does just 'saying' something is timeless avoid the problem of an infinite regress? Most theists who believe in a creator God also believe God thinks. So even if one is comfortable seeing that this God doesn't change...there is an implication that God thinks and thinks multiple thoughts. Now...does God think all these thoughts at once, in that one eternal, timeless moment, or does he actually have sequential thoughts where, for example, he 1) decides to create, 2) weighs the pros and cons of creating, 3) plans how to create, 4) actually creates and then 5) thinks about whether and how to involve himself with his creation, whether to bless, judge, penalize, or whatever. And did God have OTHER thoughts than just those relating to creating? You know...'what was God thinking before he decided to create?' or 'what was God's first thought?'

So...even if we are to somehow SAY God is timeless, if he has sequential thoughts, those would seem to indicate a kind of time passing because for all intents and purposes, isn't time the thing which keeps everything from happening all at once? And if his thoughts didn't happen all at once, they happened sequentially. So at a minimum we would think of sequential thoughts instead of ticks of a clock as being the measure of time, for God.

It would seem that if God did all that thinking in one eternal moment, then the natural world that he is supposed to have created must have also existed eternally since no time...no sequence of events, nothing could separate the moment when God thought to create and when the natural world popped into existence. And this gets us back to the problem of infinite regress...if the universe has always existed, how did we ever transcend an infinite amount of time and arrive at this point.

But beyond that, if there is some hypothetical explanation for how God can be timeless/eternal AND still have sequential thoughts, then I guess as a naturalist I can borrow that hypothetical explanation and apply it to some arrangement of the natural world and say it too is eternal and timeless, never had a beginning and still managed to do something that resulted in the time/space matter/energy universe emerging from the timeless background existence.

I realize this is just one part of the many arguments for God, but it is among the most intriguing, to me.

Probably little help except I view "now" as eternal. Now is timeless. The universe is in a perpetual cycle of creating now. What came before o longer exists. You can conceptualize a past that regresses to some starting point but none of that actually exists now. Now is all that exists. Now is all that ever will exist.

The beginning of the universe is now. Each moment the universe creates itself from nothing. You want to go back to the creation of the universe, you are already there. There is no "time" that the universe wasn't creating itself.

Unfortunately, I doubt this view will help you win an argument since most are going to insist the beginning of the universe happened sometime in the past.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Is it valid to assert something is the solution to a conundrum simply because it is 'other than' natural? There would still seem to be the issue of logistics.

It need not be ‘other than’.

Consider for a moment that you are dreaming of romance. In dream, are ‘you‘ who are dreaming other than the ‘dream you’ who is romancing with a dream partner? These two ‘you’ are same yet not same.

Further consider the pre-dream deep sleep state, which subjectively is devoid of self-time-space. The one existent in deep dreamless sleep transitions to dream and waking states, and in these two states the self-space-time take birth. But ‘You’ in all these three states are the same.

...
 

McBell

Unbound
For many years, I've been an atheist who finds arguments for God fascinating. Lately I've been reading more about the various cosmological arguments. Part of the foundation for those arguments is the idea that the natural world cannot have an infinite past because of the assumed impossibility of an infinite regress. The impossibility is either expressed as something that is intuitively understood to be true or examples are given to show how if the past was infinite, we could never, for example, arrive at this point in time, because that would imply that an infinite amount of time had to have passed in order to arrive at this point. And since it is impossible for an infinite amount of anything to have transpired, the natural world cannot have an infinite past.

The argument then proceeds to assert something else must exist that is other than or outside of the natural world. And it is further asserted that this thing must, almost by definition, be infinite/timeless/non-temporal. And that thing ( which of course ends up being God based on further arguments and reasoning) is supposed to solve the conundrum of the infinite regress.

But...I just can't figure it out. How does just 'saying' something is timeless avoid the problem of an infinite regress? Most theists who believe in a creator God also believe God thinks. So even if one is comfortable seeing that this God doesn't change...there is an implication that God thinks and thinks multiple thoughts. Now...does God think all these thoughts at once, in that one eternal, timeless moment, or does he actually have sequential thoughts where, for example, he 1) decides to create, 2) weighs the pros and cons of creating, 3) plans how to create, 4) actually creates and then 5) thinks about whether and how to involve himself with his creation, whether to bless, judge, penalize, or whatever. And did God have OTHER thoughts than just those relating to creating? You know...'what was God thinking before he decided to create?' or 'what was God's first thought?'

So...even if we are to somehow SAY God is timeless, if he has sequential thoughts, those would seem to indicate a kind of time passing because for all intents and purposes, isn't time the thing which keeps everything from happening all at once? And if his thoughts didn't happen all at once, they happened sequentially. So at a minimum we would think of sequential thoughts instead of ticks of a clock as being the measure of time, for God.

It would seem that if God did all that thinking in one eternal moment, then the natural world that he is supposed to have created must have also existed eternally since no time...no sequence of events, nothing could separate the moment when God thought to create and when the natural world popped into existence. And this gets us back to the problem of infinite regress...if the universe has always existed, how did we ever transcend an infinite amount of time and arrive at this point.

But beyond that, if there is some hypothetical explanation for how God can be timeless/eternal AND still have sequential thoughts, then I guess as a naturalist I can borrow that hypothetical explanation and apply it to some arrangement of the natural world and say it too is eternal and timeless, never had a beginning and still managed to do something that resulted in the time/space matter/energy universe emerging from the timeless background existence.

I realize this is just one part of the many arguments for God, but it is among the most intriguing, to me.
Kinda sounds like the argument is replacing infinite time going back with an infinite outside source.
 

Pipiripi

End Times Prophecy.
For many years, I've been an atheist who finds arguments for God fascinating. Lately I've been reading more about the various cosmological arguments. Part of the foundation for those arguments is the idea that the natural world cannot have an infinite past because of the assumed impossibility of an infinite regress. The impossibility is either expressed as something that is intuitively understood to be true or examples are given to show how if the past was infinite, we could never, for example, arrive at this point in time, because that would imply that an infinite amount of time had to have passed in order to arrive at this point. And since it is impossible for an infinite amount of anything to have transpired, the natural world cannot have an infinite past.

The argument then proceeds to assert something else must exist that is other than or outside of the natural world. And it is further asserted that this thing must, almost by definition, be infinite/timeless/non-temporal. And that thing ( which of course ends up being God based on further arguments and reasoning) is supposed to solve the conundrum of the infinite regress.

But...I just can't figure it out. How does just 'saying' something is timeless avoid the problem of an infinite regress? Most theists who believe in a creator God also believe God thinks. So even if one is comfortable seeing that this God doesn't change...there is an implication that God thinks and thinks multiple thoughts. Now...does God think all these thoughts at once, in that one eternal, timeless moment, or does he actually have sequential thoughts where, for example, he 1) decides to create, 2) weighs the pros and cons of creating, 3) plans how to create, 4) actually creates and then 5) thinks about whether and how to involve himself with his creation, whether to bless, judge, penalize, or whatever. And did God have OTHER thoughts than just those relating to creating? You know...'what was God thinking before he decided to create?' or 'what was God's first thought?'

So...even if we are to somehow SAY God is timeless, if he has sequential thoughts, those would seem to indicate a kind of time passing because for all intents and purposes, isn't time the thing which keeps everything from happening all at once? And if his thoughts didn't happen all at once, they happened sequentially. So at a minimum we would think of sequential thoughts instead of ticks of a clock as being the measure of time, for God.

It would seem that if God did all that thinking in one eternal moment, then the natural world that he is supposed to have created must have also existed eternally since no time...no sequence of events, nothing could separate the moment when God thought to create and when the natural world popped into existence. And this gets us back to the problem of infinite regress...if the universe has always existed, how did we ever transcend an infinite amount of time and arrive at this point.

But beyond that, if there is some hypothetical explanation for how God can be timeless/eternal AND still have sequential thoughts, then I guess as a naturalist I can borrow that hypothetical explanation and apply it to some arrangement of the natural world and say it too is eternal and timeless, never had a beginning and still managed to do something that resulted in the time/space matter/energy universe emerging from the timeless background existence.

I realize this is just one part of the many arguments for God, but it is among the most intriguing, to me.
My friend, we humans was created in the image of God. God have give humans power over everything in this world.
The thing is that we are not robots ta God has put a chip in our brains and control us. Human was just like a born baby that doesn't know what is good or evil. The angels are the same way created. We are made to be in companionship with God and also His others creation. But this earth sin has entered. Why? Because of disobedience of the man. Read Genesis 1 and think. Also Genesis 2.
Because we are already in the plan of God to come in existence, we have born in this sin world. We are the only created being and Satan and his demons knowing what sin is. For us humans there is hope, thanks to Jesus His blood. Now only through Jesus we can entered God's kingdom again. My friend, we are in the middle of a war that we must choose, on which side we will be. Ephesians 6:10-18.
And if you have time go here and tried to answer the questions.
The Atheist Delusion Movie (2016)
On YouTube.
 

Pipiripi

End Times Prophecy.
The cosmological argument is a flawed argument. First of all, even if we assume that it is true, it does not proof any specific God, which means that all religions could be equally wrong. They simply assume that if this argument is accepted, then obviously their God is the right one.

Furthermore, the argument is one out of ignorance, because nothing seem to suggest that the first cause should be a God. It could be anything really. Also who say that something can't simply have existed forever? We know that our Universe were created, but that doesn't mean that everything else has to outside of it? And in that case there doesn't need to be an intelligent creator of anything.


I don't know, if I would use the word timeless, rather than saying that time is irrelevant. If something have always existed, they might still experience time, obviously if we are talking about an intelligent being, it will probably be boring at some point :) But if it's not, why should time matter?
Don't be afraid to go and tried to answered all the questions here.
The Atheist Delusion Movie (2016).
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
But...I just can't figure it out. How does just 'saying' something is timeless avoid the problem of an infinite regress?

That's like asking why a computer programmer isn't subject to be bound by the rules of a virtual game world they create.

They have the power to create rules to bind the participants of the game to. Rules which they themselves don't experience as part of their reality and are not bound by.

If you imagine our universe as an enclosed bubble, with all it's matter, and it's rules of operation programmed in, and imagine God as sitting outside that bubble observing in, then you could imagine why time could exist for us but not for God. And why there is no logical reason why time would have to exist for God if he is outside of the universe which has time as a part of it's ruleset and experience.

Most theists who believe in a creator God also believe God thinks. So even if one is comfortable seeing that this God doesn't change...there is an implication that God thinks and thinks multiple thoughts. Now...does God think all these thoughts at once, in that one eternal, timeless moment, or does he actually have sequential thoughts where, for example, he 1) decides to create, 2) weighs the pros and cons of creating, 3) plans how to create, 4) actually creates and then 5) thinks about whether and how to involve himself with his creation, whether to bless, judge, penalize, or whatever. And did God have OTHER thoughts than just those relating to creating? You know...'what was God thinking before he decided to create?' or 'what was God's first thought?'

So...even if we are to somehow SAY God is timeless, if he has sequential thoughts, those would seem to indicate a kind of time passing because for all intents and purposes, isn't time the thing which keeps everything from happening all at once? And if his thoughts didn't happen all at once, they happened sequentially. So at a minimum we would think of sequential thoughts instead of ticks of a clock as being the measure of time, for God.

Your idea is based on the assumption that thoughts need to be sequential.

But there is no reason to assume it has to be that way. That could just be a limitation of the universe we are in.

In fact, I'd argue that our experience doesn't even work that way based on what we can observe in our universe.

There's a difference between intuition, prophetic knowledge, internal dialogue, and perception processing.

Internal dialogue is as far as I know always sequential by definition. It's you talking and reasoning with yourself.

Perception processing might be a sequential activity to a degree, with regards to the limitations of the brain and nervous system to process your five senses and present them to you in a sequential form that you then must understand sequentially.

However, internal dialogue and perception processing are not the only way we experience realizations and information coming into our awareness.

My experience with the spiritual gifts such as discernment and prophecy (both with myself and seeing others operate in it), is that the capability exists for people to instantly have a download of information or awareness about something in a way that was not sequential. It's a simultaneous download of complex information that wasn't sequentially reasoned to arrive at but simply appeared in their understanding fully formed.

I believe that even without spiritual gifts people still experience non-sequential thought formation via the process of intuition. They just have a sense or knowing that something is true, or that to do a certain action will be good or bad, without engaging in any kind of sequential thought process to evaluate information and come to a conclusion. And in genuine cases of gut level or some other kind of spirit level intuition, it's not merely their subconscious memory processing past experiences to bring them a conclusion they did not actively think about.


It would seem that if God did all that thinking in one eternal moment, then the natural world that he is supposed to have created must have also existed eternally since no time...no sequence of events, nothing could separate the moment when God thought to create and when the natural world popped into existence. And this gets us back to the problem of infinite regress...if the universe has always existed, how did we ever transcend an infinite amount of time and arrive at this point.

But beyond that, if there is some hypothetical explanation for how God can be timeless/eternal AND still have sequential thoughts, then I guess as a naturalist I can borrow that hypothetical explanation and apply it to some arrangement of the natural world and say it too is eternal and timeless, never had a beginning and still managed to do something that resulted in the time/space matter/energy universe emerging from the timeless background existence.

I think your idea is based on an erroneous understanding of what time really is.

If we start from the assumption that the Bible is true, then there are things we can learn about the difference between how God works and how man works that would give us clues about what time is and isn't.

From a Biblical perspective, time would not be defined simply as the act of events happening in sequence, one after another. In fact, I don't think sequential action would even be a part of the Biblical definition of time.

Time, what makes us different from where God is, would be better defined by two things:
1. Decay, entropy. There's a beginning and an end. It's mortality. It's not immortal. It's a process of constant change.
2. Awareness (And I'd say this is the more important one). God is all knowing, capable of knowing what the end is from the beginning. We, in our world, are bound by only knowing what we can directly perceive. Our awareness is restricted. His is not.

It is entirely possible that you could live in a realm where there was no entropy and no limited awareness, but in which you also were capable of acting sequentially.

I would conclude that the main difference between time and non-time would have to be how one in time is limited in their ability to know and experience only the immediate sequence of events they are involved in.

The contrast is that God would know the entire end outcome of his thought before he acted upon it. Whereas we can only speculate and guess what the outcome of our thoughts and actions will be.

Philosophical ideas about time aren't necessarily reflective of reality.
Their idea of "time" may be a complete fantasy.
So if we try to read certain philosophical ideas about time into the Bible we can't expect the two ideas to mesh together if the Bible is true but the philosophical ideas are not true.

When talking about how God is or is not defined by time, we'd first have to be able to state some empirical truths about time. What is it?
But I don't know of anything you can empirically say is true about the idea of time as a concept that isn't already found in the Bible.
And for those ideas about time which are not found in the Bible, which would contradict the Bible, we must ask what evidence you have for believing those aspects of time are shown to be real rather than just being idle speculation.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I believe the regression is plausible in thought.

. . . but not in the reality of our physival existence. Infinite regress is a human construct in math, nothing more.

take all the motion we see in our telescopes .....and draw it back
all the way back.

Superficial observation.

. . . and you arrive at the primordial singularity.

maybe . . .

MOVEMENT is then the question
science would have you believe the object will remain motionless until
Something moves it.

Only in the macro world not in the Quantum World.

science would also have you believe in action and equal reaction . . .

Only in the macro world, and not in the Quantum World of Quantum Mechanics.

. . once the BANG begins it would be a hollow sphere of energy
expanding equally is all directions
one percussion wave.
That is not how Physics and Cosmology considers the theories of the expansion of our universe. First, no BANG involved.

but that is NOT what we see when we look up.

When we look up all we see is stars, planets, moons and galaxies.

[qutoe] so.....I SAY......
the rotation would need to be in play BEFORE the expansion begins [/quote]

???

the singularity was pinched .....and snapped
by the fingers of God.

so to speak

Too much of an anthropomorphic description of God Creating.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The problem is an infinite regress tied to laws of conservation and thermodynamics.

Infinite regress is a human construct of a math infinity, and not remotely relate to the laws of conservation of energy nor thermodynamics. Infinite regress only defines the limits of an infinite regreess, nothing more.

100% of physicists/cosmologists refute the idea of an oscillating universe.

No, and very very few physicists and cosmologist consider our universe physical existence had a finite beginning. Most scientists conside our universe is part of a multiverse, and/or support that our universe is cyclic.


This universe had a finite beginning, as the Bible states (Genesis 1:1).

Religious assertion based on ancient scripture, based on mythology.
 
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Nimos

Well-Known Member
Don't be afraid to go and tried to answered all the questions here.
The Atheist Delusion Movie (2016).
Interesting how a whole documentary can contain so many fallacious arguments, that in itself is a miracle. :D
Right of the bat it's an argument from ignorance, going straight into drawing fallacious conclusions.... if A can't explain it, then B must be true... amazing :D Obviously mixed with guesses of what atheists believe and don't believe in, presented as if all atheists believe in the same thing.

Absolutely rubbish from start to end. But interesting nonetheless.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The way I understand it, if we think of the past as a series of moments, one before the other, then we can think of trying to count them. The one just before this one is...1. The next one back is 2. The next one 3. But how long would it take...what number do we have to count to to arrive at the beginning? The idea is that we can't, because that would involve counting TO infinity. Another aspect is that, let's say we go back, say, a billion moments. The same amount of time...the same number of moments, had to have elapsed for someone at that point as had to have elapsed for us to be at this point. Yet, infinity plus a billion is...still infinity.

The problem here is that it is confusing two different notions of 'the same amount of time': the subset notion and the cardinality notion. There is no actual contradiction.

This quote also describes an example: https://www.answers-in-reason.com/religion/god-infinite-regress/

"If we imagine a soldier waiting for orders from the soldier before to fire at the enemy. The soldier at the front asks the soldier behind if they have permission to fire. That soldier then asks the soldier behind them, then that soldier repeats the same process. Eventually we must come to a soldier that gives permission to fire, otherwise the soldier at the front of line would never be able to fire. There must be a soldier who is the ‘first cause’, the one that gives permission to fire."

Except that is going backwards. It assumes a soldier has to ask all the way back. And that is what is wrong: in an infinite regress, there are *always* soldiers that have had permission and those that have not.

If there is no 'first soldier', then the permission is simply a traveling wave that has always been traveling. There *is* no first soldier.

That site also goes on to talk about what I am posing here...how does God solve the problem.

It doesn't. There is no problem.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The problem is an infinite regress tied to laws of conservation and thermodynamics. Almost 100% of physicists/cosmologists refute the idea of an oscillating universe. This universe had a finite beginning, as the Bible states (Genesis 1:1).

If time is infinite, there would be periods where the second law fails. It is a statistical law, not a fundamental one. There is even a time period associated with its failure: the Poincare recurrence time.

Most cosmologists don't go for an oscillating universe as much as they go for a multiverse with many universes. The multiverse would be eternal (infinite time into the past).
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"What exists" is "excitations of the underlying quantum fields." No excitation, no existence. RigVeda said existence and non-existence are kins. Time does not matter.
But then, did not Allah create the universe and sent various manifestations, including Joseph Smith, Bahaollah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with his messages?

Since you do not believe in God, your statements are problematic and selective. Yes, in theistic religions God Created our physical existence, but that was not in the past not described how and when.

The Baha'i Faith teaches that Creation is eternal with the the Creator, and the atributes of God are reflected in the Creation, and in harmony with science is discriptive with the nature of our physical existence,. O course science cannot falsify whether our physical existence is infinite or eternal, or finite and temporal.

You do not believe in any of this, so why bother.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I have come to the same conclusion as you. Thinking about a beginning without a cause or eternal existence leads to a paradox either way. Those who think they have a solution just stopped thinking at a convenient point.

I do not consider the unknown as representing a paradox. Our physical existence and the Natural Laws may very well be infinite and eternal with or without an eternal cause, no problem.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well....true, those are anthropomorphic representations of something(s) we probably wouldn't be able to fathom. But regardless of how one pictures a God's machinations, they either happen all at once or they happen in sequence.
Either or from the human perspective cannot define the Source some call God(s). The Baha'i Faith describes Oru Physical existence eternal with God, and reflecting the attributes of God, and the process of Creation is continuous process not just one event or even meny.
 

ajarntham

Member
[. . . .]But...I just can't figure it out. How does just 'saying' something is timeless avoid the problem of an infinite regress? Most theists who believe in a creator God also believe God thinks. So even if one is comfortable seeing that this God doesn't change...there is an implication that God thinks and thinks multiple thoughts. Now...does God think all these thoughts at once, in that one eternal, timeless moment, or does he actually have sequential thoughts where, for example, he 1) decides to create, 2) weighs the pros and cons of creating, 3) plans how to create, 4) actually creates and then 5) thinks about whether and how to involve himself with his creation, whether to bless, judge, penalize, or whatever. And did God have OTHER thoughts than just those relating to creating? You know...'what was God thinking before he decided to create?' or 'what was God's first thought?'[. . .]

I think some believers would deny that God experiences any sequence of thought. If God is absolutely perfect, and absolutely omniscient, then he would not have to consider between two alternatives (to create, or not to create, to penalize or not to penalize), the way we limited and imperfect beings do; rather, the correct course would be instantaneously evident to him. And this denial that God has any limitations or any imperfections is also part of why some insist that God is "outside of time," because if you say that God exists within time, you are implicitly saying that he is subject to time, and of course the idea that God is subject to anything can't be allowed.
 

ajarntham

Member
The likes of WLCraig would say that THAT [Nimos' quote] does not solve the problem...because each created world is part of a series of events which must have had a beginning.

I think the hypothesis was that each world was created by some entity without a beginning (just as Craig argues), but that such an entity would not need to be godlike, or even sentient.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Of course science cannot falsify whether our physical existence is infinite or eternal, or finite and temporal.
You do not believe in any of this, so why bother.
Not today, but I would not rule out the possibility that they may know in future (some people take on the robe of a prophet and say that science will never be able to do that).
The question of existence and non-existence is the root problem and very interesting. Unfortunately, I do not think it will be solved in my life-time.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
. . . but not in the reality of our physival existence. Infinite regress is a human construct in math, nothing more.



Superficial observation.



maybe . . .



Only in the macro world not in the Quantum World.



Only in the macro world, and not in the Quantum World of Quantum Mechanics.

That is not how Physics and Cosmology considers the theories of the expansion of our universe. First, no BANG involved.



When we look up all we see is stars, planets, moons and galaxies.

[qutoe] so.....I SAY......
the rotation would need to be in play BEFORE the expansion begins

???



Too much of an anthropomorphic description of God Creating.[/QUOTE]



may the Force be with you
 
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