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God can not be disproven by science

ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
..well that is not so different than saying that G-d is not subject to our space & time..
..and that G-d is responsible for its existence.

It's all relative ;)
Click to expand...

Is it? I though it was saying other universes, if they exist will have their own laws which may or may not be similar to ours.

Interestingly, progrssors Andrei Linde and Vitaly have calculated the possible number of universes. 10^10^16 universes that our brains would recognise as universes and approximately twice that number if universes that the human brain could not comprehend.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
Not at all.
Space and time are merely perceptions .. we call them "reality" .. as they are of course, from our
perspective in this universe.
G-d does not have to be "observable" .. G-d is NOT PART of the physical universe.

The mistake you are making, is in thinking that what we can/have observe(d) is all there is !
That cannot be proved, nor is it likely.
Click to expand...

If something effects me then it can be observed.
If it can't effect me then no reason to worry about it.

The more you describe the attributes of God the less reasons there are to be concerned about them.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
@Nakosis said "That's fine since I take that to mean we can't interact with God and God can't interact with us as interaction requires both space and time.."

I am merely saying that this is false. I rejected his premises. :)
Click to expand...

You are free to reject it, but that is still the way it works. If God can affect the physical universe than that physical affect can be measured by science.

The concept of God not being measurable by science is not my premise.
Anything that can affect the universe means that affect is measurable.

Why should we worry about something (God) which you continue to claim cannot affect the universe in any measurable way?
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
RestlessSoul said:
Okay, let’s take those definitions. You seem to be saying that time and space are the dimensions of the stage on which the drama of existence plays out, is that fair?

And are you sure than can be no noises off, no unseen influences on the players, as they strut the stage and deliver their lines?
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If there exists players off-stage if they cause any influence on the stage, then that influence can be measured.
A lot of things, like gravity can't be directly observed for example however it's effects can.

Science can observe the effects and still falsify theories of the non-observable through the observation of the effects.

The problem here is saying that science cannot verify God. That only that can be true is if God has no effect on the universe.

You can't have it both ways. Either Gods has an effect on the universe, which is all that is required by science for observation or God causes no observable effect on the universe in which case there would be nothing to observe.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. like we can observe the change in people when they become spiritually enlightened,
but we cannot observe their soul/mind .. study it, maybe .. but not necessarily comprehend.
Click to expand...

Try an MRI, the mind can and is studied

spiritual-experience.jpg


This is an image of god...
 
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Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
Who says that G-d can't?
We are just going round in circles..
Click to expand...

From the OP "God can not be disproven by science."

This would only be true if God had no observable affect on the universe.

Empirical evidence is observable evidence which science can use to falsify theories/claims.

If science cannot disprove God it is only because has no observable effect on the universe.
The problem is that science has dis-proven so many claims about God to the point that the overwhelming lack of proof is itself proof.

The failure is not with science. The failure is with believers inability to provide any measurable or observable proof of their claims about God.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Nakosis said:
From the OP "God can not be disproven by science."

This would only be true if God had no observable affect on the universe.

Empirical evidence is observable evidence which science can use to falsify theories/claims.

If science cannot disprove God it is only because has no observable effect on the universe.
The problem is that science has dis-proven so many claims about God to the point that the overwhelming lack of proof is itself proof.

The failure is not with science. The failure is with believers inability to provide any measurable or observable proof of their claims about God.
Click to expand...
As I was reading this, I removed the word "God" and replaced it with some other abstract "made up" human notion that doesn't have any observable existence - morality.

Morality has no observable effect on the universe as morality is not a "thing" with dimensions in time or space. Can't even try to reduce it down to some dumb math equation either, as with gravity.

Thus, we should also reject the existence of morality, as it more or less follows the same pattern here. There's no measurable or observable proofs of anyone's claims about morality. There is overwhelming lack of evidence for morality. It's just made up nonsense.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. like we can observe the change in people when they become spiritually enlightened,
but we cannot observe their soul/mind .. study it, maybe .. but not necessarily comprehend.
Click to expand...

People are constantly changing. The universe is constantly changing.
Observing people/the universe changing is only proof that people/the universe changes, nothing else.

There exist theories and proof for those theories of why people and the universe changes.
God is not required for the testing of any of these theories.

You can claim God caused the change. I can claim a pink unicorn cause the change. Since neither can be tested, they are both equally invalid claims per science.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Quintessence said:
As I was reading this, I removed the word "God" and replaced it with some other abstract "made up" human notion that doesn't have any observable existence - morality.

Morality has no observable effect on the universe as morality is not a "thing" with dimensions in time or space. Can't even try to reduce it down to some dumb math equation either, as with gravity.

Thus, we should also reject the existence of morality, as it more or less follows the same pattern here. There's no measurable or observable proofs of anyone's claims about morality. There is overwhelming lack of evidence for morality. It's just made up nonsense.
Click to expand...

Yes, I reject the existence of morality. It is just some made up nonsense.

People make choices based on a number of observable factors like genetics, culture, environment.
We make up a concept like morality to explain the choices we make because we fail to understand the actual causes for these choices.

Sure there exists a whole realm of pseudo knowledge about morality just like there exists a realm of pseudo knowledge about God. Morality is simply more made up woo because we can't understand the cause and can't stand to accept how actually ignorant we are about it.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Nakosis said:
Yes, I reject the existence of morality. It is just some made up nonsense.

People make choices based on a number of observable factors like genetics, culture, environment.
We make up a concept like morality to explain the choices we make because we fail to understand the actual causes for these choices.

Sure there exists a whole realm of pseudo knowledge about morality just like there exists a realm of pseudo knowledge about God. Morality is simply more made up woo because we can't understand the cause and can't stand to accept how actually ignorant we are about it.
Click to expand...
So... just to be clear... you are... not being sarcastic?

I mean... if not... at.... at least you're sort of trying to be consistent in rejection of huge swaths of reality and the human experience? :sweat:
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Nakosis said:
Empirical evidence is observable evidence which science can use to falsify theories/claims.

If science cannot disprove God it is only because has no observable effect on the universe..
Click to expand...
I don't think so.
Take the weather, for example .. can we predict with any certainty what it will be like tomorrow? No.
One cannot disprove that G-d might be able to change it .. locally AND globally.

Nakosis said:
The failure is not with science. The failure is with believers inability to provide any measurable or observable proof of their claims about God.
Click to expand...
We don't have to .. you either believe or disbelieve .. end of!
As we can see from this site, many people explain their faith to others until they are "blue in the face",
but if people are obstinate, they continue to argue against. :)
 
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