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God cannot have Form?

Onkara

Well-Known Member
What is your scriptural basis for this? Indra is clearly a demi-god and I have never seen any reference to contrary. If you think that Krishna and Indra are equal you may as well say that you and Krishna are equal the only difference being name and form.

From the Bhagavad Gita 10.22:

vedānāḿ sāma-vedo 'smi

devānām asmi vāsavaḥ

indriyāṇāḿ manaś cāsmi

bhūtānām asmi cetanā


Of the Vedas I am the Sāma Veda; of the demigods I am Indra, the king of heaven; of the senses I am the mind; and in living beings I am the living force [consciousness].

Yes, I am nothing without Krishna, therefore all I am is Krishna.
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
God's form, as held in seeker's mind, is as per the form of seeker him/herself. When seeker knows one's own form, god's form is also known.
This makes no sense. The first sentence is beyond my comprehension completely.
As for the second:
Who doesn't know their own form? That means every atheist knows the form of God. I mean you could say you know God's form is human like but that is very general, you can't say you know his form exactly.
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
From the Bhagavad Gita 10.22:

vedānāḿ sāma-vedo 'smi

devānām asmi vāsavaḥ

indriyāṇāḿ manaś cāsmi

bhūtānām asmi cetanā


Of the Vedas I am the Sāma Veda; of the demigods I am Indra, the king of heaven; of the senses I am the mind; and in living beings I am the living force [consciousness].

Yes, I am nothing without Krishna, therefore all I am is Krishna.

"Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlāda, among subduers I am time, among beasts I am the lion, and among birds I am Garuḍa." Bg 10.30
So this means the lion is also Krishna so maybe you should start worshiping lions.

Your verse is out of context.
"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Yes, I will tell you of My splendorous manifestations, but only of those which are prominent, O Arjuna, for My opulence is limitless." Bg 10.19. Krishna is simply citing these different things to demonstrate his opulence.
He summarizes these verses by saying:
"Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor. " Bg 10.41
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
This makes no sense. The first sentence is beyond my comprehension completely.
As for the second:
Who doesn't know their own form? That means every atheist knows the form of God. I mean you could say you know God's form is human like but that is very general, you can't say you know his form exactly.

Very fine. But did you even try?
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
Dear I ching

Brahma Samhita is not Veda and is not Sruti. Further, do you understand the meaning of vigraha?

I'm sorry if Brahma's opinion is not good enough for you. Vigraha means form.

Yamunacarya says:

tvāḿ śīla-rūpa-caritaiḥ parama-prakṛṣṭaiḥ
sattvena sāttvikatayā prabalaiś ca śāstraiḥ
prakhyāta-daiva-paramārtha-vidāḿ mataiś ca
naivāsura-prakṛtayaḥ prabhavanti boddhum
"My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedānta and the Upaniṣads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." (Stotra-ratna 12)
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
"Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlāda, among subduers I am time, among beasts I am the lion, and among birds I am Garuḍa." Bg 10.30
So this means the lion is also Krishna so maybe you should start worshiping lions.

Your verse is out of context.
"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Yes, I will tell you of My splendorous manifestations, but only of those which are prominent, O Arjuna, for My opulence is limitless." Bg 10.19. Krishna is simply citing these different things to demonstrate his opulence.
He summarizes these verses by saying:
"Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor. " Bg 10.41

The context of the verse alone is sufficient:

"of the senses I am the mind; and in living beings I am the living force [consciousness]."

I am mind, I am a living being with consciousness.

Where do you think the difference between us and Krishna lies, please?

:)
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
The context of the verse alone is sufficient:

"of the senses I am the mind; and in living beings I am the living force [consciousness]."

I am mind, I am a living being with consciousness.

Where do you think the difference between us and Krishna lies, please?

:)

Our body dies and Krishna's doesn't.
Krishna is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent we are not.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Our body dies and Krishna's doesn't.
Krishna is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent we are not.

Thanks. What is it of Sri Krishna exactly that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, what is here now (with you and me and the other person reading this)?
:)
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
Thanks. What is it of Sri Krishna exactly that is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, what is here now (with you and me and the other person reading this)?
:)
Krishna is in the heart of every living entity. We are His superior energy and this matter is His inferior energy.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Krishna is in the heart of every living entity. We are His superior energy and this matter is His inferior energy.

I agree with that too. You word it nicely. So my inferior matter, my body, will die, but no doubt other material matter will be born and so on it goes.

What is eternal is His superior energy which resides in the heart of every living entity.

Both together are Him (Krishna).

There is a sense of limitation about us. Despite both forms of energy being Him. What causes the limitation enforced on us?
 
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I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
What is eternal is hii superior energy which resides in the heart of every living entity.

Both together are Him (Krishna).
I think you misunderstood. He is in the heart as the Paramatma and we are atma. They are not same. We are the energy but we are not the energetic.

There is a sense of limitation about us. Despite both forms of energy being Him. What causes the limitation enforced on us?
In relation to Krishna we will always be limited because we are not Krishna.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
I think you misunderstood. He is in the heart as the Paramatma and we are atma. They are not same. We are the energy but we are not the energetic.


In relation to Krishna we will always be limited because we are not Krishna.
Thanks. I don't see how to discriminate energy from the energetic, perhaps that will help me to understand how we are not Krishna?
 

haribol

Member
God is formless no doubt and what we see is an illusion. Everything comes from God and gets submerged into Godliness. Anything we see outside Godliness is a n illusion. Dualism is an illusion. Shapes, sizes, forms and the rest are sheer illusory substances and at the end of the day nothing will matter and all will be immersed into the cosmic void that is sheer consciousness and nothing else
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
God is formless no doubt and what we see is an illusion. Everything comes from God and gets submerged into Godliness. Anything we see outside Godliness is a n illusion. Dualism is an illusion. Shapes, sizes, forms and the rest are sheer illusory substances and at the end of the day nothing will matter and all will be immersed into the cosmic void that is sheer consciousness and nothing else

How can you limit God to not having a form? If you have a form and he doesn't it means that you are greater than He is. Vaishnava philosophy is not duality but oneness and difference.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
How can you limit God to not having a form? If you have a form and he doesn't it means that you are greater than He is. Vaishnava philosophy is not duality but oneness and difference.
Haribol may reply for himself, but to add this to your last response. For me it isn't a matter of greater than God, but knowing that we are a part of God by recognising the material limitations. The material limits are still God (Krishna). So there is never any duality, no Him versus us, it is one, yet it appears different. Why does it appear different is the question.

The sun and the sunshine are one and the same, they are only different by name and form.
 

idea

Question Everything
I have been thinking about the objections that come from some religions regarding the idea that God can have form. Often I see the response from people who do believe in form to be ‘so you are placing restrictions on an all-powerful entity?’

I think that this response is fair enough. But what has also occurred to me is that for those who do not believe in form, arguing that a form is itself limited and yet God is limitless so therefore God cannot be contained in form…etc…do you not believe that God is everywhere?

And what does it mean to you that God is everywhere? Is a little bit of God here and a little bit of God there…or is God equally and fully present everywhere at all times?

This is something that I, as a Hindu, believe. God is fully present everywhere at all time. If this is true, then how can we argue that God is fully present everywhere but cannot be fully present within a manifest form? What then are the objections against the possibility of a personal form of God?

I believe that God has form - a human form to be more exact - that we really are made in His image.

a few scriptures...
Gen. 1:27 (Moses 2:27) God created man in his own image
Gen. 5:1 God created man, in the likeness of God made he him
Gen. 9:6 in the image of God made he man
Gen. 18:33 Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing - He is a finite entity which comes and goes
Gen. 32:30 I have seen God face to face - He has a face
Ex. 24:10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet - He has feet
Ex. 31:18 (Deut. 9:10) written with the finger of God - He has fingers
Ex. 33:11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face
Ex. 33:23 thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen - He has a back
Num. 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth - He has a mouth and a voice
Matt. 3:17 a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son
Matt. 4:4 every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God
Matt. 17:5 a voice out of the cloud
Luke 24:39 for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have - He has a body of flesh and bones.
John 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father - Jesus looks like his dad...
Acts 7:56 the Son of man standing on the right hand of God - He has hands
Rom. 8:29 predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son
2 Cor. 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God
Philip. 2:6 who, being in the form of God
Philip. 3:21 our vile body ... fashioned like unto his glorious body
Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God
Heb. 1:3 the express image of his person - He is a person
James 3:9 men which are made after the similitude of God
1 Jn. 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him
Rev. 22:4 they shall see his face - one day we will see him, perhaps shake his hand, or better yet, give him a hug, wash his feet with our tears...

I do not believe that God is some strange imaginary abstraction - He is a real, physical and spiritual being whom you can see, talk with, etc. etc. - He is real, He has substance - but unlike us, God's body is perfect and unconfining.

consider the evil spirits who were so desperate to have/possess a body:
Matthew 8:31 - 32
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.


why did the evil spirits want a body so badly? because it's pretty neat to be able to touch / feel / eat chocolate cake - it's all just a thought experiment if you cannot go out and physically do things.

everywhere at once?
consider the sun - the sun is a finite object, and yet the gravitational effects of the sun are present everywhere - this is how I see God, as a finite being whose influence has extended throughout everything. I believe that those who live righteously grow closer to God, and therefore feel more of his influence - just as the gravitational effects of the sun grow more powerful as you move closer to it.
 
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I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
Haribol may reply for himself, but to add this to your last response. For me it isn't a matter of greater than God, but knowing that we are a part of God by recognising the material limitations. The material limits are still God (Krishna). So there is never any duality, no Him versus us, it is one, yet it appears different. Why does it appear different is the question.

The sun and the sunshine are one and the same, they are only different by name and form.

We different from God to increase His enjoyment of Love. If we were just one then that would be boring. You can't experience Love if you are alone.

hiraṇmayena pātreṇa
satyasyāpihitaḿ mukham
tat tvaḿ pūṣann apāvṛṇu
satya-dharmāya dṛṣṭaye
"O my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore, I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-māyā. The brahmajyoti is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge." Īśopaniṣad (mantra 15)
 

I-Ching

Aspiring to Transcendence
I believe that God has form - a human form to be more exact - that we really are made in His image.

a few scriptures...

[/I]James 3:9 men which are made after the similitude of God
1 Jn. 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him
Rev. 22:4 they shall see his face - one day we will see him, perhaps shake his hand, or better yet, give him a hug, wash his feet with our tears...

I do not believe that God is some strange imaginary abstraction - He is a real, physical and spiritual being whom you can see, talk with, etc. etc. - He is real, He has substance.

consider the sun - the sun is a finite object, and yet the gravitational effects of the sun are present everywhere - this is how I see God, as a finite being whose influence has extended throughout everything. I believe that those who live righteously grow closer to God, and therefore feel more of his influence.

That's wonderful!
Why not find out more about the nature of God's form and his divine loving pastimes in Srimad Bhagavatam.

Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā [Supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted.

SB 1.2.18: By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.

SB 1.2.19: As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy.
 

idea

Question Everything
That's wonderful!
Why not find out more about the nature of God's form and his divine loving pastimes in Srimad Bhagavatam.

sure, why not? post the Amazon.com link to your favorite translation. I enjoy reading, and believe that God talks to many different groups of people :)
 
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