God Debate

[Sabio]

I do not believe in both Satan and God,

i can never be lead to God

Lee,

Your approach is a bit of a paradox... How can you firmly state that you do not believe in God, and that you can never be led to God, yet you spend so much time debating His existence? Apparently you are not as firm in your belief as you state (that God does not exist)?

In between your words I here you crying out for a reason to believe...

God will seek ways to draw you to him, these debates are an effective means...

Sabio

 

[pandamonk]

Lee,

Your approach is a bit of a paradox... How can you firmly state that you do not believe in God, and that you can never be led to God, yet you spend so much time debating His existence? Apparently you are not as firm in your belief as you state (that God does not exist)?

I debate his existence because i enjoy it. I enjoy racking my brain for an answer when someone posts something with a lot of weight behind it. I enjoy learning(Shame i didn't so much in school, lol:banghead3)

In between your words I here you crying out for a reason to believe...

I am not crying out for a reason to believe. I am giving reasons as to why i do not believe and debating because in the past i have been asked why i don't believe and have been unable to answer, after being unable to answer i read up on it and now i can answer, and by debating i learn more and more.

God will seek ways to draw you to him, these debates are an effective means...

These debates are only making me more sure that he does not exist. So in his attempt to draw me to him(if he exists, that is), he is pushing me away. :bonk:

 

[Sabio]

I debate his existence because i enjoy it. I enjoy racking my brain for an answer when someone posts something with a lot of weight behind it. I enjoy learning(Shame i didn't so much in school, lol:banghead3)

I am not crying out for a reason to believe. I am giving reasons as to why i do not believe and debating because in the past i have been asked why i don't believe and have been unable to answer, after being unable to answer i read up on it and now i can answer, and by debating i learn more and more.

These debates are only making me more sure that he does not exist. So in his attempt to draw me to him(if he exists, that is), he is pushing me away. :bonk:

Lee, So what are your reasons for not believing in God? Where did you find infallible proof for your disbelief?

Sabio

 

[pandamonk]

Lee, So what are your reasons for not believing in God? Where did you find infallible proof for your disbelief?

Sabio

Did i ever say it was infallible? i may have said that i think it is, i never said, for sure, that it is. Well, i found my "proof" all over the internet, and in a few books "Atheism:The Case Against God", "The Dark Side of Christian History" and "The Impossibility of God". I do not believe that a god does/can exist because I have read enough to know that it is impossible. Look to some of my other posts to see. Firstly before you look, you will need to agree with me on the definition of a god. The definition of a god is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, perfect, immutable, transcendent, non physical, personal, free, all-loving, all-just, all-merciful, creator of the universe (This is not a full list, but is as much as I know). If you do not agree with any of these attribute ascribed to God, then i do not know in what you believe and worship, but it cannot be considered a god.

 

[pandamonk]

Sorry, forgot all-good, lol, what a one to miss.

 

[chuck010342]

So by your reasoning, you're saying everything that exists needs to have be created? [QUOTE

no I'm reasoning anything that HAS A BEGINNING needs a cause.

Then so must God. And so must the creator of God and so on. And if you say that God need not be created why not apply the same reasoning to the universe.

as I said before


Okay I get it. What we have here is intelligence making its way on information. this is how I refute the argument.

Were did the information to form the universe come from?
from other information

Where did that information come from
from other information

Where did that information come frome
from other information

the only thing that makes sense is infinite information (aka GOD)

see above.

well carbon dating shows that dinosaur fossils are millions of years old. Also radiometric dating, which can be read about http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html and
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html#age

All dating methods are based on assumptions that everyting continues in the past as it is now in the future. Another assumption they make is that no world wide cotastriphe (check spelling) has covered the world. for more information see.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/cec/sy2001/1-4.asp

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp

yey! So if I can prove the attributes of God to be contradictory, can we agree that God does not and cannot exist?

Go ahead and try to prove it. I have a feeling of the things your going to say.

 

[Sabio]

Did i ever say it was infallible? i may have said that i think it is, i never said, for sure, that it is. Well, i found my "proof" all over the internet, and in a few books "Atheism:The Case Against God", "The Dark Side of Christian History" and "The Impossibility of God". I do not believe that a god does/can exist because I have read enough to know that it is impossible. Look to some of my other posts to see. Firstly before you look, you will need to agree with me on the definition of a god. The definition of a god is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, perfect, immutable, transcendent, non physical, personal, free, all-loving, all-just, all-merciful, creator of the universe (This is not a full list, but is as much as I know). If you do not agree with any of these attribute ascribed to God, then i do not know in what you believe and worship, but it cannot be considered a god.

I agree with your description of God, but must add more data so that you can completely understand who I serve:

Jesus my Savior
My King
God Almighty
God All Sufficient
Everlasting Father
Counselour
Prince of Peace
Lord of my Soul
My Provider
My Healer
My Rock
The Lord who Sanctifies me
My Shepard
My Judge
My Peace
Righteousness
The God who opens our eyes
My Strength
My Shield
The Lord of Hosts

This just scratches the surface.

Sabio

 

[michel]

I was going to say - there aren't the words to describe him.

 

[Mike182]

This is aimed at believers in a god.

God

A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

the dictionary definition. so, basically, true

God is also meant to be all moral

but can God be any of those?

i don't think so.

Omnipotence(all powerful) i believe is impossible

reason: can god or any other, supposedly, omnipotent being make 2 magnets that are too powerful for god/that being to separate. if yes that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot separate the magnets, if no that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot make the magnets?

you may say that he/it can but we cannot understand how, as we are not omniscient like him/it. But should God not give you the answer? Maybe even he/it doesn't have them? But he must, he is omniscient. So why does he not give you them? It's like a leader of an army sending his troops into a war without any weapons, or any means of acquiring those weapons, how are they meant to win? They would obviously call on the leader for help, or just abandon the mission and give up what they were fighting for. If the leader chose not to help, like God has, then I'm sure basically all the troops would abandon it, the few that remain would certainly lose the war, and their lives. Maybe that leader never really existed and was only a rumour spread by a few men who wanted to cause chaos or were greatly mistaken in what they believed. Or maybe the leader was the one who wanted to cause chaos (sounds like someone else mentioned in the bible, does it not?). This shows that either God does not exist, and was made up by confused, mistaken, or evil men, or that it you are worshipping the completely wrong being (not all moral)

omniscience (all knowing) i also believe is impossible if god is to have free will/act/think/do anything basically.

reason: if god was omniscient he would know everything he was going to do right from the start of his/its existence therefore anything it did do would be predetermined and even god a, supposedly, omnipotent being could not change what he knew would happen. therefore god could not have free will and is just, basically, acting with no thought etc. and if god knew everything what is the point of praying? he knows what you're going to say.

originator and ruler of the universe:

ok the universe is too complicated, according to most christians, not to have a creator so must have been designed and build by god. But if god designed and built the universe does that also not make him/it too complicated not to have a creator so who created him/it? a super god? but would it/him not be too complicated, so who created him/it? a superdooper god? well who....you know where this is going. So is it not easier to say the universe was not designed or created? and maybe just accept the big bang theory or something?

just something to think about

wow - nice paradox at the start

its just like the paradox of the stone - can god create a stone that god cannot lift

the answer is yes god can create a stone that god cannot life - and yes he can lift it

you are trying to apply logic to God and logic is flawwed

take for example a room - can you walk across a room?

yes you can - anyone can walk across a room (sorry to disclude disabled people in this but you get my drift)

to cross the whole room - logically speaking - you must have crossed half the room before you can cross the whole room

but before you can cross that half the room - logically speaking - you must have crossed half of that half of the room

and again, before you can cross that quater of the room - logically speaking - you must cross half of that quater of the room first

this goes on for ever because to cross a whole distance you must cross half of it first - then the half of that distance is a whole distance in itself - and again you must cross half of that first - because you always have half a distance logically speaking you never run out of half distance - and if you never run out of them then they are infinate - and because you cannot cross infinity you cannot (logically speaking) cross a room


anyway - the answer to the first paradox about the magnets

if we say that god has many attribute - his first attribute is the power to make magnets of any and all strength

his second attribute is the power to seperate any two objects

gods first attribute allows him to make two magnest so strong his first attribute cannot seperate them

but using his second attribute he can seperate them

ergo god has the power to make two magnets so strong he cannot seperate them - yet he can seperate them


my other arguement would be that if you dont believe in god - why are you testing him? your entitled to your belief about god (and other religious forms of dieties) but for an atheist to speak a paradox about god implies acceptance of such a being - ergo some aspect of belief

God Bless

 

[Ceridwen018]

this goes on for ever because to cross a whole distance you must cross half of it first - then the half of that distance is a whole distance in itself - and again you must cross half of that first - because you always have half a distance logically speaking you never run out of half distance - and if you never run out of them then they are infinate - and because you cannot cross infinity you cannot (logically speaking) cross a room

I suppose that this is technically off-topic, but I think I'm missing something with the above paragraph. The half-distances are not infinite at all--they end at the wall on the other side of the room. Now, there are infinite ways to divide the whole distance, but in order for the half-distances to be infinite, the entire distance would have to be infinite too.

you are trying to apply logic to God and logic is flawwed

Mmm, perhaps it is. I would say, however, that it is a dangerous move on your part to claim that God is able to step outside of logical boundaries, for its then that he becomes accountable for many other things. For example, why can't god do away with evil, and yet still give people free-will? Does he enjoy seeing people suffer? I'd say its either that, or he just can't do it.

Unlimited power in an imperfect world is the perfect sign of deliberance.

 

[pandamonk]

wow - nice paradox at the start

its just like the paradox of the stone - can god create a stone that god cannot lift

the answer is yes god can create a stone that god cannot life - and yes he can lift it

you are trying to apply logic to God and logic is flawwed

take for example a room - can you walk across a room?

yes you can - anyone can walk across a room (sorry to disclude disabled people in this but you get my drift)

to cross the whole room - logically speaking - you must have crossed half the room before you can cross the whole room

but before you can cross that half the room - logically speaking - you must have crossed half of that half of the room

and again, before you can cross that quater of the room - logically speaking - you must cross half of that quater of the room first

this goes on for ever because to cross a whole distance you must cross half of it first - then the half of that distance is a whole distance in itself - and again you must cross half of that first - because you always have half a distance logically speaking you never run out of half distance - and if you never run out of them then they are infinate - and because you cannot cross infinity you cannot (logically speaking) cross a room

This argument has already been answered. And This also just proves we can do the infinite, and your statement "and because you cannot cross infinity" is false. You also use logic to prove logic is flawed. Thats like using the bible to show that the bible is true, It cannot be accepted, in any way.

anyway - the answer to the first paradox about the magnets

if we say that god has many attribute - his first attribute is the power to make magnets of any and all strength

his second attribute is the power to seperate any two objects

gods first attribute allows him to make two magnest so strong his first attribute cannot seperate them

but using his second attribute he can seperate them

ergo god has the power to make two magnets so strong he cannot seperate them - yet he can seperate them

I never asked if God has the attributes of being able to make magnets and of being able to separate them. We all know that is a god exists it must have these attributes. I asked if God, as a whole(including all attributes he must have), could make the magnets, or rock, that are to to strong to separate, or too heavy to lift, then separate them, or lift it. Obviously he could separate any magnets, or lift any rock. And obviously he can make any magnets, of any rock. Be he cannot do both. He cannot make magnets that are too strong for even him to separate and then separate them. If he did separate them using any means he did not do what I asked of him, and therefore cannot be considered omnipotent.

And in answer to

A paradox proves nothing im afraid..

In fact I answered a similar question on whether God could create a rock to heavy for him to lift. Let me dig it up...

If God's powers are infinite, then he could supposedly make an infinitely heavy rock. Likewise his 'lifting' ability would also be infinite.
The complication comes from the fact that the human mind cannot comprehand or properly analyse infinity. It is beyond our capabilities.
In order to NOT be able to life the rock however, gods abilties to create a heavy rock would have to be BEYOND those of his abilties at lifting. Since infinity is infinite there can be nothing beyond it. It can go as far as is necessary.
Therefore since infinity is equal to infinity we can safely assume that whatever God can create, he can lift.
The alternative approach is that God can lift 'anything'. 'Heavyness' is not a limiting factor for a being of ultimate power. In other words he would find it just as easy to life a 'light' rock as he would a 'heavy' rock. No matter how heavy he makes it, it is just as easy to lift.

Can you see a similar answer for your analogy?

All you have done with this answer is prove to me that God cannot make a Rock(magnet) that is too heavy(strong) for it to lift(separate). God cannot make something more than infinite, seeing as there is nothing more than infinitude, is that not something God cannot do? God should have the ability to do anything. So, God should have the ability to make the un-makable, but with this argument it proves he does not. And therefore proves he does not and cannot exist. There is something we can do which God cannot. Make something too heavy(strong) for us to lift(separate). This also proves God cannot be omnipotent and, therefore, cannot exist. I also did not ask for God to make an infinitely heavy(strong) rock(magnet). I asked him to make it too heavy(strong). He did not do what I asked him.(Sorry this is not very well constructed, I just keep thinking of more and more which is wrong with what has been said)

my other arguement would be that if you dont believe in god - why are you testing him? your entitled to your belief about god (and other religious forms of dieties) but for an atheist to speak a paradox about god implies acceptance of such a being - ergo some aspect of belief

God Bless

I am not testing him, I am, though, testing the attributes ascribed to "him". In attempt to show (prove, whatever) that a God does not and cannot exist.

 

[Sabio]

I am not testing him, I am, though, testing the attributes ascribed to "him". In attempt to show (prove, whatever) that a God does not and cannot exist.

Lee,

Why do you want to prove that God does not exist?
What benefit will it produce?
Will you still have hope once you disprove God's existence?
Will it bring you peace?
Who will be the beneficiary?
When will you call it "proved"?
Where do you go from the point of disproving God's existence?
How do you ever expect to prove this?

Sabio

 

[pandamonk]

Why do you want to prove that God does not exist?

I want to prove God does not exist because, I've had countless people telling me I'm wrong; my girlfriend almost split up with me because I'm atheist; people stand in the street and come to my door to preach; I get frowned on in society because of my beliefs; etc etc etc etc etc.

What benefit will it produce?

The benefit will be that I know I am not wrong; I can explain to people why I believe what I believe; etc etc.

Will you still have hope once you disprove God's existence?

I have hope now without a god.

Will it bring you peace?

Yes, it will give me answers to the countless number of questions I have been asked about why I'm atheist. So yes my life will be more peaceful(no more annoying people telling me I'm wrong and that i will burn in hell etc)

Who will be the beneficiary?

I will be the beneficiary, and if word spread so will humanity(lol)

When will you call it "proved"?

I will call it "proved" when it is perfect and there is no way of showing it to be wrong.

Where do you go from the point of disproving God's existence?

I will get on with my life.

How do you ever expect to prove this?

By discussing and making my, already very strong, arguments perfect.

 

[Sabio]

I want to prove God does not exist because, I've had countless people telling me I'm wrong; my girlfriend almost split up with me because I'm atheist; people stand in the street and come to my door to preach; I get frowned on in society because of my beliefs; etc etc etc etc etc.
The benefit will be that I know I am not wrong; I can explain to people why I believe what I believe; etc etc.
I have hope now without a god.
Yes, it will give me answers to the countless number of questions I have been asked about why I'm atheist. So yes my life will be more peaceful(no more annoying people telling me I'm wrong and that i will burn in hell etc)
I will be the beneficiary, and if word spread so will humanity(lol)
I will call it "proved" when it is perfect and there is no way of showing it to be wrong.
I will get on with my life.
By discussing and making my, already very strong, arguments perfect.

Lee,

So to sum it up, the whole point of this excercise is to validate your position?

I'm sorry for the way you have been misreated by people, but I've had atheists treat me just the same as you describe because I serve Jesus, in fact I expect the world to hate me because it hated Jesus! There are people who will condem you from every belief system, not just Christians. Do you agree?

You sound like you are looking for acceptance, feeling alienated, have a need to "belong", and you think atheism is the answer. But if you truly want these things, Jesus will accept you and love you just as you are. When you yield yourself to Him, He will bring change in your life as needed.

The route you are choosing now (and you are choosing to accept a faith or belief system called atheism) will not bring you acceptance, peace, love, or contentment, let alone forgiveness or eternal life.

In the name of Jesus, I pray that the spirits that blind you, deceive you, and make you deaf to God's Word would be bound and speachless; and that God will send His Holy Spirit to you to minister; I pray that He will bless you with open eyes, wisdom, knowledge and understanding; clarity of mind and spirit; that you will accept His gift of eternal life, and save your soul for eternity.

Blessings

Sabio

 

[pandamonk]

Lee,

So to sum it up, the whole point of this excercise is to validate your position?

Well...yes. Why not?

I'm sorry for the way you have been misreated by people, but I've had atheists treat me just the same as you describe because I serve Jesus, in fact I expect the world to hate me because it hated Jesus! There are people who will condem you from every belief system, not just Christians. Do you agree?

I'm sorry too for the way you have been mistreated by people. And yes i do agree, but not nearly so many, as i live in a mostly christian society.

You sound like you are looking for acceptance, feeling alienated, have a need to "belong", and you think atheism is the answer. But if you truly want these things, Jesus will accept you and love you just as you are. When you yield yourself to Him, He will bring change in your life as needed.

Hmm...You seem to be misreading my position. I do not need change in my life, when it comes to religion anyway. This has a total "I'm right you're wrong" feel to it.

The route you are choosing now (and you are choosing to accept a faith or belief system called atheism) will not bring you acceptance, peace, love, or contentment, let alone forgiveness or eternal life.

And again with the "i'm right you're wrong". How do you know it will not bring me acceptance, peace, love or contentment? YOU DO NOT KNOW ME!!! I have all these things already. What makes you think i don't. Forgiveness from what? God? I'm sure it's not me who needs forgiveness. It's God who need forgiveness from his people. For thousands of years he has mistreated them and never apologized, according to the Bible. (I posted on this not long ago, maybe in another debate, but "seek and ye shall find", lol). What makes you think i want or need eternal life? Especially with a being like God(of the Bible). I would rather spend it will Satan(I also posted on this not long ago, how he, throughout the Bible, never commits any greatly immoral acts, and yet God commits thousands)

In the name of Jesus, I pray that the spirits that blind you, deceive you, and make you deaf to God's Word would be bound and speachless; and that God will send His Holy Spirit to you to minister; I pray that He will bless you with open eyes, wisdom, knowledge and understanding; clarity of mind and spirit; that you will accept His gift of eternal life, and save your soul for eternity.

Hmm I don't even know how to answer this post......so I won't, lol.

 

[Sabio]

Hmm...You seem to be misreading my position. I do not need change in my life, when it comes to religion anyway. This has a total "I'm right you're wrong" feel to it.

Not "I'm right", "God is right"

It's God who need forgiveness from his people. For thousands of years he has mistreated them and never apologized, according to the Bible. What makes you think i want or need eternal life? Especially with a being like God(of the Bible). I would rather spend it will Satan.

With this statement you are recognizing the existence of both God and Satan!

Hmm I don't even know how to answer this post......so I won't, lol.

No answer needed Lee, this is an invocation on a spritual level.

Sabio

 

[pandamonk]

Not "I'm right", "God is right"

And you follow "God" so you're right and I'm wrong.

With this statement you are recognizing the existence of both God and Satan!

If you knew me, you would know that i was talking hypothetically about God and Satan. :bonk:

No answer needed Lee, this is an invocation on a spritual level.

hmm yes.:clap

read my posts from last night!

 

[Sabio]

And you follow "God" so you're right and I'm wrong.

If you knew me, you would know that i was talking hypothetically about God and Satan. :bonk:

hmm yes.:clap

read my posts from last night!

My synopsis of your posts last night:

"If something exists, then the opposite must exist"
"If something does not exist, then the opposite must not exist"
"If God created something, than He had to have created the opposite"
"If it is possible that God exists, it must also be possible that God does not exist"

If this is your line of reasoning and logic then:

There must be the possbility of God's existence.
If God exists, It must be possible for God to Create.
If God can create it must be possible for Him to create man and offer him free will.
If God created man, man must be able to choose between good an evil.

Choose God and good Lee...

Sabio

 

[pandamonk]

My synopsis of your posts last night:

"If something exists, then the opposite must exist"
"If something does not exist, then the opposite must not exist"
"If God created something, than He had to have created the opposite"
"If it is possible that God exists, it must also be possible that God does not exist"

If this is your line of reasoning and logic then:

There must be the possbility of God's existence.
If God exists, It must be possible for God to Create.
If God can create it must be possible for Him to create man and offer him free will.
If God created man, man must be able to choose between good an evil.

From your synopsis "If something exists, then the opposite must exist" You're saying

"If God exists, then his opposite (not God) must exist" So you're saying,
"If God exists, then he does not exist" and
"If God does not exist, then he exists"

This is not my line of reasoning and logic

God, hypothetically, is the one who created the rules so he could of made it so the opposite is never needed eg. good and evil.

It is possible that God may or may not exist, but from what I have shown, God cannot exist as we know him. And if a deity does exist, it cannot be considered a god.

Did you even look at any of my arguments?
I suggest you do.

 

[Sabio]

God, hypothetically, is the one who created the rules so he could of made it so the opposite is never needed eg. good and evil.

True, God created the rules and He could have made it so the opposite is never needed. But if you did not know evil how could you appreciate good? How would you know the goodness of God without the example of evil (sin, Satan, fallen angels)?

It is possible that God may or may not exist, but from what I have shown, God cannot exist as we know him. And if a deity does exist, it cannot be considered a god.

Correction; God cannot exist as "you" know Him, He does exist as "I" know Him. God does not come to us on our terms or conform to our image of Him (although Satan does as a counterfeit, so that you will be deceived into beleiving a lie). God being supreme sets His own terms, and we must come to Him and commune with Him on His terms, not ours. If we try to set the terms of our discourse with God, through our own pride we make ourselves into "little gods" by making our desires greater than the desires of God. He creates, we are the creation, we are created at His pleasure and for His pleasure.

There are others that you may refer to as "deity", they are princes, rulers and principalities in the spiritual realm. These are in actuality Satan and the angels that by their own free will decided not to follow God (also known as demons, or unclean spirits). They now inhabit the atmosphere surrounding the earth. Their livelihood is to decieve man with counterfeits and spiritual deception, they only seek to steal, kill, and destroy. I agree that these are not gods, nor will they ever be, they are condemed to an eternity in Hell, against God's will, because of their own choice.

That is the same choice we all have to make. Since we can see how good God really is, we have the free will to follow Him and partake of HIs goodness through His Son Jesus. Or we can choose to be like the fallen angels, condeming ourselves against God's will.

Did you even look at any of my arguments?
I suggest you do.

Yes I did, but you are caught in an endless loop, there is no answer to your circular question and reason.

I pray that you will have an open mind and and open heart.
Sabio