MattersOfTheHeart
Active Member
Such as, how could God create and imperfect world for one.
Or how can we follow a God that can't create a perfect world.
Guess those are two big points for some people considering faith.
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God decides to create and...
- Thread starter MattersOfTheHeart
- Start date
Or how can we follow a God that can't create a perfect world.
Guess those are two big points for some people considering faith.
PackJason
I make up facts.
MattersOfTheHeart
Active Member
I don't see how.
Part of being a perfect God includes justice.
God could not exact judgement if he also is guilty of the same.
I'm not sure how this detracts from being all-powerful.
Explain.
I have to disagree. Why can't there be multiple perfections? Why can't perfection be everywhere? Why can't there be no perfection? One perfection is only one idea of many, and if you're only looking for people with that idea maybe you should have posted in the Abrahamic DIR. I personally don't believe in perfection. Claiming that is the natural state for people to resort to a single perfection is ill-informed at best.
PackJason
I make up facts.
I think it's pretty self explanatory. For instance, can god feel lust? And if so, can he act on that lust? If not, then he doesn't possess that capability, therefore is not all-powerful.
MattersOfTheHeart
Active Member
I'm aware my views are skewed.
However I think I can mathematically and scientifically back the idea of perfection up to just one thing. Somewhat similar to how science would live to group four forces to one forces etc.
So I can definitely make an argument that perfection is one thing and one thing particular. However if it ends up being to abrahamic I would agree about a dir.
MattersOfTheHeart
Active Member
Not to belabor a point but your suggesting lust is a power?
How would you go about proving perfection exists at all, let alone that it is only one thing? I'm actually curious since perfection just seems impossible to me, how would we even prove that something that's perfect is perfect?
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Although creation appears to be crap right now God does not leave it all purposeless. One day he will prove himself to the world by coming to it once more. The question is will we be ready to see him. For many people, they won't. But he is coming and every eye will see him. People who say that they will wait till they see God to believe in him are not thinking about the implications of him coming back. He's coming back to judge the planet. And even though he will give them a chance to believe there will still be those on the earth who reject him and choose evil. But he will wipe away the tears from the eyes of those who believe in the end. And I think the reason why they'll be crying is not because of the hardships they faced in this life, it'll be because of the souls lost. In the end there's restoration for any who receive redemption because when Jesus comes he'll make us like him.
I see creation more as an artwork of God like a play/drama perhaps. In the greatest works of Shakespeare there is much drama in the middle. Yet, the play is regarded as a great work of art. That is more like how I see creation as a non-dual (God and creation are not-two) and it is God playing all the roles. The triumph of the finite to the One infinite is the glory of the play. A play with a positive ending.
MattersOfTheHeart
Active Member
You're right to ask how do we know if perfect is perfect.
To simply matters, as Einstein was famous for saying if it can't be explained so a child can understand it you don't understand it well enough.
Starting with the trifecta Omni scenario, let's ask the opposite of your question. How can we state it is not perfect.
I don't mean subjectively, I mean based on all the human experience we have, imagine a child for example with its mother. Something with perfect justice, perfect love and perfect power and perfect knowledge, what could possibly be missing to better define perfection? Of course parents fall short of this, but it sets up a possible definition.
Again we can start with a hypothesis and test it. That's all I can offer you is to show you a road of thought and if you decide to hear it all out you'll be fully informed to confirm or deny.
So help me understand, based on the hypothesis:
Perfection is perfect love, perfect knowledge, perfect justice and perfect power.
What will prove this incorrect?
This isn't a I'm right you're wrong thing, this is us playing with complex concepts in easy to understand terms.
Thought we could try to start here.
I think this could actually be a very interesting discussion. I define perfection as having no bad in it, I'm sure we could go on about a definition but it's the one I'll stick with at the moment. The way I see it, this is impossible because there is good and bad in everything. Even the child with its mother. I would say that the child is imperfect because it caused harm to the mother (birth pains), and the child, by existing, contributes to overpopulation and will eventually aid in global warming and landfill growth even if only by using diapers and water and electricity. I can understand calling the love between them perfect, because it is selfless (as in, not just for personal gain such as "I love you because you buy me things"), but is love something we can even call perfect because it is immeasurable and intangible?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Sin makes God jump through hoops.
arthra
Baha'i
What if our view of perfection in creation isn't accurate..that is, we might assume that it is and find out later there's more to the universe than we figured. Creation also could be what philosophers called an "emanation". I think we try to "anthropomorphise" God by assuming there is a human process going on...a "decision", God "decides" to create when it could be an "emanation" For instance:
"...there is the world of God,
the world of the Kingdom,
and the world of Creation: three things.
The first emanation from God is the bounty of the Kingdom, which emanates and is reflected in the reality of the creatures, like the light which emanates from the sun and is resplendent in creatures;
and this bounty, which is the light, is reflected in infinite forms in the reality of all things, and specifies and individualizes itself according to the capacity, the worthiness and the intrinsic value of things."
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 295
"...there is the world of God,
the world of the Kingdom,
and the world of Creation: three things.
The first emanation from God is the bounty of the Kingdom, which emanates and is reflected in the reality of the creatures, like the light which emanates from the sun and is resplendent in creatures;
and this bounty, which is the light, is reflected in infinite forms in the reality of all things, and specifies and individualizes itself according to the capacity, the worthiness and the intrinsic value of things."
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 295
But you said that God can do all things that are possible. Is it not possible to sin?
Ciao
- viole
PackJason
I make up facts.
People are able to feel lust. Does god have this ability?
Akivah
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why you are using a non-applicable criteria to judge G-d's handiwork. I could just as easily ask why didn't G-d create everything blue. That question makes as much sense as yours.
We can only point to G-d as being good. Perfect is not a word that is used in the Hebrew bible. We point to G-d's existence since we experienced Him, not due to a descriptor.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
This question is nonsensical. The Laws that G-d bestowed upon us are inapplicable to G-d. G-d has no form, so He can't have sexual relations, acquire assets, consume food, etc.
MattersOfTheHeart
Active Member
Sorry out of town for few days so limited access.
All great points, which helps aim or refine the discussion to hopefully eliminate what perfection can not be.
I'll ask you to ponder on this for a bit. Often times perceived perfection is closer related to pride than anything meaningfully perfect.
Example, my salad was perfect, to which it must means yours was not as good, hence elevating my status.
Now I'm not saying we do this on purpose (all the time anyways) but we do it all the time as a way to evaluate our status to other environments and people. Clearly this can not explain perfection, but rather an ignorant path towards self righteousness.
Part of the exercise is to survey ourselves or the world at large if possible as to what would constitute the most perfect existence imagine able. What might it be, or the most perfect state of being or awareness.
Attempting to eliminate trivial notions at describing perfection, we ought to reach for the greatest heights we can fathom. Of course still falling short, but at least rid of the rift raft.
If you and I were together and I asked you to make everything perfect, you would "do" something. It is this something that will guide us on our journey to understanding real perfection.
It mustn't be a miserable journey, but a chance to find truth and greater meaning to our life.
So if you don't mind, be alone with me on an island and tell me what you must do to make everything perfect. It can be concise, if your not one for lots of words, but it will help us solidify some common ground between us.
Or you can resign because I'm a blathering idiot that is making no sense.