ragordon168
Active Member
but free will can be suppressed. if you brainwash a small child to have no free will they will grow up always folowing orders like a robot. if free will is eternal and indestructible then how os this possible?
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God did not "create" anything.
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but free will can be suppressed. if you brainwash a small child to have no free will they will grow up always folowing orders like a robot. if free will is eternal and indestructible then how os this possible?
ragordon168
Active Member
the same way we are all made up of the energy/matter that once made up a million other organisms before us.
TruthTeller
Member
So Yah-Wah, Yah, is the one who actually spoke everything into existence but then Elohim, the malachem under the supervision of Yah, are the one's who did the work of forming and "creating" a new place on that which was already here, by the voice of Yah, for man to live and thrive?
Though I wonder if what was formed by way of the water being separated by the land and allowing such beast as the dino's to eat of the seed of plants, by way of their fruit, then distributing by their defecating all over the place, as do birds, those seeds that have now been fertilized and planted to grow more and more as this is repeatedly done to create a more habitable place for man. Maybe this was to intent of the malachem from the beginning as the world as they started with was basically "water world"?
TruthTeller
Member
Pro 16:4 YAH has made everything for its own end-- yes, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am YAH, who does all these things.
idea
Question Everything
To use your will takes "willpower". Not everyone has willpower. Most of us, most of the time, do not use our will... but it is there. No scientist can predict exactly how we will react to everything, because we are not robots simply following Newton's laws...
idea
Question Everything
We are made up of more than just energy/matter... we are also made with spirit. Spirit is the eternal part of us.
idea
Question Everything
Things were not "spoke into existence". They were never non-existent. Things were organized, formed.
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 64:8)
The potter did not speak the clay into existence. He happened across it, and then formed what he found.
ragordon168
Active Member
thats your belief. to me this is it, we're born we live we die nothing more. the only thing i believe is that energy and thought are eternal .
when we die the energy returns to the earth and is remade into another life.
every thought/idea humans have is passed down and will always live on
TruthTeller
Member
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says YAH.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky, and doesn't return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring forth and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.
idea
Question Everything
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says YAH.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky, and doesn't return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring forth and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.
God can trasform whatever He wants to (except beings with free will, impossible to force them to do/be something without taking away agency)
my word - He gives the command, and the mountains move. Isa states nothing about creating something out of nothing.
Will is the power; without power --that is, use --there is no will.
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TruthTeller
Member
This puts limits on the one who gives existence to all things.
He said ........
Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.
There is no adding to nor taking away from this. Its plain and simple. His word does what pleases him. If it pleases him to raise up a man to do what he pleases without that man having the freewill to choose then so be it. Pharaoh was such a man.......
Exo 9:13 And Yah said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the Yah Elohim of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Exo 9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.
Exo 9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
As your post of the clay questioning the potter, how can you set bounds on the potter? He can make whatever, with whatever, however he so chooses. Or at least I have yet to see any scriptural evidence that shows to the contrary.
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
And I am fairly sure that if it were not for the fact that religion is secretly supporting the BBT, then it would have been tossed out long ago. It is still currently our best model, but that isn't saying much. There are many mysteries still left unanswered, our knowledge pool is still growing immensely, and there are discrepancies between evidence and what BBT predicts.
So claiming science backs up religion is actually a little backwards. Religion is forestalling science from moving on more than anything. Of course this really isn't anything new now is it?
MTF
TruthTeller
Member
We even see where he ..
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5 Who determined the measures of it, if you know? Or who stretched the line on it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon were the foundations of it fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of Elohim shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 "Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth from the womb,
Job 38:9 when I made clouds its garment, and wrapped it in thick darkness,
Job 38:10 marked out for it my bound, set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 and said, 'Here you may come, but no further. Here shall your proud waves be stayed?'
Job 38:12 "Have you commanded the morning in your days, and caused the dawn to know its place;
Job 38:13 that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, and shake the wicked out of it?
Job 38:14 It is changed as clay under the seal, and stands forth as a garment.
Job 38:15 From the wicked, their light is withheld. The high arm is broken.
Job 38:16 "Have you entered into the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in the recesses of the deep?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Have you comprehended the earth in its breadth? Declare, if you know it all.
Job 38:19 "What is the way to the dwelling of light? As for darkness, where is its place,
Job 38:20 that you should take it to its bound, that you should discern the paths to its house?
Job 38:21 Surely you know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!
Job 38:22 Have you entered the treasuries of the snow, or have you seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 By what way is the lightning distributed, or the east wind scattered on the earth?
Job 38:25 Who has cut a channel for the flood water, or the path for the thunderstorm;
Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on a land where no man is; on the wilderness, in which there is no man;
Job 38:27 to satisfy the waste and desolate ground, to cause the tender grass to spring forth?
Job 38:28 Does the rain have a father? Or who fathers the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? The gray frost of the sky, who has given birth to it?
Job 38:30 The waters become hard like stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 "Can you bind the cluster of the Kima, or loosen the cords of Kesil?
Job 38:32 Can you lead forth the Mazzarot in their season? Or can you guide Ayish with her cubs?
Job 38:33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you establish the dominion of it over the earth?
Job 38:34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That abundance of waters may cover you?
Job 38:35 Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go? Do they report to you, 'Here we are?'
Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts? Or who has given understanding to the mind?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of the sky,
Job 38:38 when the dust runs into a mass, and the clods of earth stick together?
Job 38:39 "Can you hunt the prey for the lioness, or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 when they crouch in their dens, and lie in wait in the thicket?
Job 38:41 Who provides for the raven his prey, when his young ones cry to Elohim, and wander for lack of food?
How can one put limitations on one like this? He does as he sees fit and to his pleasure.
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
If this being is real, then it exists within the bounds of reality. If that is true, then I can put limits on it and there is not a bloody thing you can do about it. If "God" exists, then "God" cannot be any more substantive than the reality "He" exists within. QED
And as soon as you posit that "God" exists outside of reality entirely, then this being can have precisely ZERO contact with us without being subject to some limitation reality presents. We are not capable of perfect understanding, therefore "God" cannot use "perfect communication" without altering us to make us capable of perfect understanding which would require altering our brains and senses which would require altering the way chemistry works which would require altering the way physics works which would require altering the way the universe works which requires altering the way the cosmos works... So all of reality gets rewritten or unraveled by positing the inclusion of a pure infinity.
MTF
TruthTeller
Member
Sure...... o.k. :bonk:
idea
Question Everything
Had to add this link to the thread. It seems a book (a thesis) has now been written on it.
God is not the Creator, claims academic - Telegraph
God is not the Creator, claims academic
The notion of God as the Creator is wrong, claims a top academic, who believes the Bible has been wrongly translated for thousands of years.
Professor Ellen van Wolde, a respected Old Testament scholar and author, claims the first sentence of Genesis "in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth" is not a true translation of the Hebrew.
She claims she has carried out fresh textual analysis that suggests the writers of the great book never intended to suggest that God created the world -- and in fact the Earth was already there when he created humans and animals.
Prof Van Wolde, 54, who will present a thesis on the subject at Radboud University in The Netherlands where she studies, said she had re-analysed the original Hebrew text and placed it in the context of the Bible as a whole, and in the context of other creation stories from ancient Mesopotamia.
She said she eventually concluded the Hebrew verb "bara", which is used in the first sentence of the book of Genesis, does not mean "to create" but to "spatially separate".
The first sentence should now read "in the beginning God separated the Heaven and the Earth"
According to Judeo-Christian tradition, God created the Earth out of nothing.
Prof Van Wolde, who once worked with the Italian academic and novelist Umberto Eco, said her new analysis showed that the beginning of the Bible was not the beginning of time, but the beginning of a narration.
She said: "It meant to say that God did create humans and animals, but not the Earth itself."
She writes in her thesis that the new translation fits in with ancient texts.
According to them there used to be an enormous body of water in which monsters were living, covered in darkness, she said.
She said technically "bara" does mean "create" but added: "Something was wrong with the verb.
"God was the subject (God created), followed by two or more objects. Why did God not create just one thing or animal, but always more?"
She concluded that God did not create, he separated: the Earth from the Heaven, the land from the sea, the sea monsters from the birds and the swarming at the ground.
"There was already water," she said.
"There were sea monsters. God did create some things, but not the Heaven and Earth. The usual idea of creating-out-of-nothing, creatio ex nihilo, is a big misunderstanding."
God came later and made the earth livable, separating the water from the land and brought light into the darkness.
She said she hoped that her conclusions would spark "a robust debate", since her finds are not only new, but would also touch the hearts of many religious people.
She said: "Maybe I am even hurting myself. I consider myself to be religious and the Creator used to be very special, as a notion of trust. I want to keep that trust."
A spokesman for the Radboud University said: "The new interpretation is a complete shake up of the story of the Creation as we know it."
Prof Van Wolde added: "The traditional view of God the Creator is untenable now."
imaginaryme
Active Member
Is it my birthday? MTF sticking his neck that far out?
Religion ain't forestalling nuffink. It's religious nonsense within science itself that often causes the wheels to spin without imparting momentum. Whay religious nonsense? Ancestor worship, for one. Newton certainly made a quantum leap in his time, but that time is past. Holding on to "sacred truths," instilling "law in honor of accomplishment," in a domain that is far better served by theory; this is the kind of "blind faith" for which the science types rightly speak out against religion. Newton will always be worthy of honor; but he has been the giant. Now science must realise that in scientific terms, he has already past being a shoulder. (I could be wrong on this tidbit.) The last I heard it told, Newtonian mechanics now only exists in the classroom.
What am I rambling on about? Dark matter, of course. It is currently "the best scientific explanation for the discrepancies between theory and empirical evidence" or some such Scripture handed down from the high priesthood of Astrology (cough, cough) - I mean, astronomy. Forty years, countless man-hours, untold quantities of cash; and for what? Zippo. Zilch. Nada. Let Sherlock tell it:
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains - however improbable - must be the truth.
Dollars to donuts, it is a misapplication of the philosophy of a fictional detective; combined with someone (once upon a time) not using the scientific method, that is what resulted in this completely extraneous variable. Once upon a time, someone must have thought it impossible that we do not understand gravity.
We do not understand gravity. We do not understand time. Heck, we don't even understand space!
As for the Big Bang, there is no real alternative explanation; you mentioned that one. But you failed to mention that rather than being "religious nonsense," the BBT is actually doing its job; prediction outcomes and holding up under scrutiny. Without turning this rant into an astronomy lecture; we thought we knew more about Cepheid variables and spatial expansion than we knew about the BBT. Then we thought again. I thought I was a SAP, but BBT without the Inflationary Corollary works fine for me.
Still ain't true. Ain't gonna be law. It's gonna be theory building better theory.
And if that ain't enough presents for me, the MTF-meister trys to be all logical and state that existence is some kind of boundary condition for that which is beyond existence. Don't you know reality trumps logic? You know what a back-door is, n'est-ce pas? I contend that god at least works through the span of human conception. I have an atheist on record in this very forum who would attest that all atheists accept that god is a concept. And I ask you, what is a concept, and where does one keep such a thing?
For the record, dark matter serves at least one useful function. It pulled an extraneous variable out of the ather just like Creationism tried, but it is still more science than Creationism will ever be. Someone may have formed an hypothesis before the first meaningful observation; but that's the human condition, we ask questions. It is easy to forget to stop asking questions because uncertainty smells like fear; because the scope of science has become so unimaginably vast, assumption becomes mandatory for deduction. Ain't like in Sherlock' s day when everything was biology.
Did god actually create anything? Well, it was a team effort. We made the unknown more knowable by naming it god, yet it is the shared conception of god that calls us all together to do science. To know god, to know that god does not exist; these will always be good reasons to do science. God is waiting for us, either way.
logician
Well-Known Member
Actually, I think it is religious arrogance that sometimes seeps into science that holds up scientific advancement, such as the idea that dinosaurs were cold blooded held sway for so long, because paleontologists refused to admit that dinosaur anatomy could be the equal if not better than mammalian anatomy in the dominance arena. Finally Bakker (and some earlier paleontologistx) came along to show that most dinosaurs were warm blooded, and ridded us of the nonsense of cold blooded dinosaurs.
idea
Question Everything
God did not create evil. You make Him out to be a monster by saying He created everything.
There is no scripture which supports ex-Nihlo creation.