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God did not create the Universe

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
Dark matter is detectable and even measurable indirectly; for instance in the bullet cluster, where the nature of the galaxy's collision with another one has separated the baryonic/visible matter from the dark matter.
(Bullet Cluster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

I've never heard of Hawking supporting many-worlds interpretation, where did you get this information?

Well, all that says is that the separation cannot be explained by the standard model. It does nothing to prove the existence of dark matter.

Isnt it possible that huge, GIGANTIC black hole they have been discovering in the center of the galaxy (and in all galaxies) might have more to do with the missing mass? But here we have all these scientists who have spent their careers researching "dark matter", it seems unlikely they would ever admit it doesnt exist.

I couldn't find the exact article regarding Hawking's statements about the MWI, but what I found is kind of conflicting. One has him saying (in an interview from 1983) that the MWI is "self-evidently correct", but later he recants and says its just a theory which gives good results, and you cannot know reality in any absolute way. If only he maintained that second attitude more often....
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Well, all that says is that the separation cannot be explained by the standard model. It does nothing to prove the existence of dark matter.

Isnt it possible that huge, GIGANTIC black hole they have been discovering in the center of the galaxy (and in all galaxies) might have more to do with the missing mass? But here we have all these scientists who have spent their careers researching "dark matter", it seems unlikely they would ever admit it doesnt exist.

I couldn't find the exact article regarding Hawking's statements about the MWI, but what I found is kind of conflicting. One has him saying (in an interview from 1983) that the MWI is "self-evidently correct", but later he recants and says its just a theory which gives good results, and you cannot know reality in any absolute way. If only he maintained that second attitude more often....

I'm not sure how familiar you are with cosmology, but the bullet cluster's separation means that on one side of the galaxy we can see its luminous matter's mass but the rest of its mass is measured in a spot that doesn't have any luminous matter. That's very good evidence for the existence of dark matter; plus gravitational lensing of stars shows that indeed there is a concentration of mass where there is no luminous matter.

Supermassive black holes are accounted for in measurements of galactic mass, but I think you're underestimating just how much cosmologists know about black matter. Most of the mass that isn't accounted for (when looking through a telescope) isn't in the center of galaxies; it's around the edges of galaxies. Thus it was predicted that most dark matter forms a halo around the luminous matter of galaxies, which makes sense (like a centrifuge).

Going back to the bullet cluster, that's exactly what we find: the areas of non-luminous mass came from around the edges of the galaxy (again, which is now ejected and separate from the luminous matter), which confirms the model of dark matter as massive, non-luminous material usually forming a halo around the luminous/baryonic matter of galaxies.

Dark matter is a very solid concept in physics, I don't think you're giving it enough credit.

As for many-worlds and Hawking, I'd have to see that he ever endorsed it, but he's also changed his mind on a great deal of things so I don't necessarily doubt it; I'd just be surprised by it.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
there is no dark side of the moon, really... matter of fact, it's all dark...
darkmattermap.jpg
darkmattermap.jpg

Physicists propose mechanism that explains the origins of both dark matter and 'normal' matter
Dark matter is pretty much a-ok. ;)
Here's another:
sheddingligh.jpg

http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-dark-yields-clues-galaxy-cluster.html
And another...
hubbleprovid.jpg

http://www.physorg.com/news156075674.html
The last one even states "evidence for dark matter," so I guess I'm done here. :D
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
As for many-worlds and Hawking, I'd have to see that he ever endorsed it, but he's also changed his mind on a great deal of things so I don't necessarily doubt it; I'd just be surprised by it.

he lets his imagination fly at times and usually makes it known that is just that.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
But yet those of the Athiest faith will still take it as their 'Gospel' until he changes his sermon to another flight of fantasy.

you might not understand what free thinking is about.

he is not gospel and i dont follow much of his work at all. he does not preach.

atheits do not have faith, you dont get it bud. theres no club here.

do you call someone who doesnt believe in santa claus a antisantaclausist???? heck no you dont.

its the same thing
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
Dark matter is a very solid concept in physics, I don't think you're giving it enough credit.

I think its an amazingly simplistic theory which has not a shred of evidence. They notice that galaxies seem to move differently from how their theory predicts, so they assume there is mass they cannot see and call it "dark matter". Next they spend millions looking for this matter they cannot see, and speculate what it might be made out of....so completely unscientific it makes me sick.

Like speculating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Did you know that scientists were in virtually 100% agreement that they would discover no mountains on Venus? Geologists figured the temperature would be too hot for mountains to form, and yet after the radar mapping they discovered that Venus has the tallest mountains in our solar system.

Just because something is based on "good science" doesnt make it any better than vague speculation, and it can just as easily turn out to be flat wrong.

My main gripe with "dark matter" is they are treating it like its totally real, and yet there is not a shred of evidence that it exists outside of some phenomena which do not conform to their expected view of the world. What if their expectations are what is wrong? It would not be the first time, is all I am saying.
 

Blackheart

Active Member
I think its an amazingly simplistic theory which has not a shred of evidence. They notice that galaxies seem to move differently from how their theory predicts, so they assume there is mass they cannot see and call it "dark matter". Next they spend millions looking for this matter they cannot see, and speculate what it might be made out of....so completely unscientific it makes me sick.

Like speculating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Did you know that scientists were in virtually 100% agreement that they would discover no mountains on Venus? Geologists figured the temperature would be too hot for mountains to form, and yet after the radar mapping they discovered that Venus has the tallest mountains in our solar system.

Just because something is based on "good science" doesnt make it any better than vague speculation, and it can just as easily turn out to be flat wrong.

My main gripe with "dark matter" is they are treating it like its totally real, and yet there is not a shred of evidence that it exists outside of some phenomena which do not conform to their expected view of the world. What if their expectations are what is wrong? It would not be the first time, is all I am saying.

Very well said. So much in this field of science is based simply on speculation. Yet people who blindly subscribe to these things deny that their belief is based on faith in the scientists being able to guess correctly. Its simply the church of science where man is God but they just dont (or wont) see it.
 

Blackheart

Active Member
you might not understand what free thinking is about.

he is not gospel and i dont follow much of his work at all. he does not preach.

atheits do not have faith, you dont get it bud. theres no club here.

do you call someone who doesnt believe in santa claus a antisantaclausist???? heck no you dont.

its the same thing

I would like to publicly declare myself as an antisantaclausist!
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Did you know that scientists were in virtually 100% agreement that they would discover no mountains on Venus? Geologists figured the temperature would be too hot for mountains to form, and yet after the radar mapping they discovered that Venus has the tallest mountains in our solar system.
This would be rather impressive, since the highest mountain in the solar system I know of is on Mars. Source, please?

Just because something is based on "good science" doesnt make it any better than vague speculation, and it can just as easily turn out to be flat wrong.
I dare you to "speculate" semiconductor electronics, then. :p

When a model of something is based on good science, that means that the model is, as far as it has been tested, correct. It is based in fact to the point that it is what the majority of the population consider a fact. The chance of it being wrong exponentially decreases the more experiments you do against it, and since the model in question is particle physics, a lot of experiments have been done.

My main gripe with "dark matter" is they are treating it like its totally real, and yet there is not a shred of evidence that it exists outside of some phenomena which do not conform to their expected view of the world. What if their expectations are what is wrong? It would not be the first time, is all I am saying.
The problem with that is thus: Their "expectations" do match up with how gravity behaves both inside the solar system, and across different solar systems. The problem only arises at the galactic scale. Hence the suggestion that there's something amiss, rather than the math being wrong.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Very well said. So much in this field of science is based simply on speculation. Yet people who blindly subscribe to these things deny that their belief is based on faith in the scientists being able to guess correctly. Its simply the church of science where man is God but they just dont (or wont) see it.

"Yeah, that stupid, retarded science, never accomplished anything," he typed on his computer. Oh, wait...
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Or water purification, antibiotics, food production, and on and on. There isn't a segment of our lives that isn't reliant on or influenced by science.

wa:do
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
But yet those of the Athiest faith will still take it as their 'Gospel' until he changes his sermon to another flight of fantasy.

This is nonsense. I've disagreed with Hawking when he supported something nonsensical and so have other atheists. Please qualify your statements to sound less like sweeping generalizations, I'd appreciate it.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Modern physics leaves no place for God in the creation of the Universe, Stephen Hawking has concluded in his new book the grand design.

“Did the Universe need a creator?” The answer he gives is a resounding “no”.
http://prince.org/msg/105/343191

Should the creator of the laws of physics need to be bound by that which it created?

Don't get me wrong...I'm as skeptic as the next (hence the Atheist logo at the bottom along with the quote)....
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I think its an amazingly simplistic theory which has not a shred of evidence. They notice that galaxies seem to move differently from how their theory predicts, so they assume there is mass they cannot see and call it "dark matter". Next they spend millions looking for this matter they cannot see, and speculate what it might be made out of....so completely unscientific it makes me sick.

Like speculating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Did you know that scientists were in virtually 100% agreement that they would discover no mountains on Venus? Geologists figured the temperature would be too hot for mountains to form, and yet after the radar mapping they discovered that Venus has the tallest mountains in our solar system.

Just because something is based on "good science" doesnt make it any better than vague speculation, and it can just as easily turn out to be flat wrong.

My main gripe with "dark matter" is they are treating it like its totally real, and yet there is not a shred of evidence that it exists outside of some phenomena which do not conform to their expected view of the world. What if their expectations are what is wrong? It would not be the first time, is all I am saying.

Not to split hairs, but the tallest mountain in the solar system is on Mars :p (Olympus Mons)

Then again, I know you're saying in general, so anyway.

You say there isn't a "shred" of evidence when I have provided you some very good evidence. Why is that? Maybe you don't understand the ramifications of the evidence I've provided you.

You also don't seem to understand why dark matter was postulated in the first place. It does indeed sound ridiculous if scientists predicted dark matter simply because galaxies were behaving differently than theory predicts. I'd agree with you that if that were the case, dark matter would indeed be a "just-so" story invented to lazily avoid reworking theory. But that simply isn't the case, it sounds like you've only read about this from the popular media and so don't really know its history.

I'm a cosmology student, just started grad school. As it turns out, I studied under Dr. Keith Ashman for a while and still hang out with him on a semi-regular basis. He was one of the first to predict large-scale structures in the universe such as globular clusters. Dark matter has often been a subject of discussion because I, too, thought it seemed ad-hoc back in the day.

The meat of the matter is that there are several factors in why dark matter is postulated. First, it is indeed true that the motions of the galaxies doesn't match theory exactly. So at first, people thought there might be some difference in acceleration on such large scales, and MOND was born (MOdified Newtonian Dynamics) to explain it. Dark matter at this time was a possibility but not treated factually.

Next, we started counting the mass in the universe. Adding up the mass from the luminous/baryonic matter was leagues away from the data we were getting from satellites studying the large-scale structure of the universe and its radiation. So we had two problems: galaxies were behaving according to theory as though they had much more mass around them, and when we counted mass we started noticing that most of the mass was unaccounted for. Can you see how things started fitting together like a puzzle?

So, we looked for invisible mass. We found it. Gravitational lensing was some of the first evidence for nonluminous matter around galaxies, ejected dark matter clusters such as in the Bullet Cluster pretty much sealed the deal.

Dark matter isn't some voodoo ad-hoc lazy explanation for the state of things, and my abridged version of its discovery doesn't really do it justice. However the evidence for dark matter is staggering. It's far from voodoo ad-hoc "science," it's good science.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Very well said. So much in this field of science is based simply on speculation. Yet people who blindly subscribe to these things deny that their belief is based on faith in the scientists being able to guess correctly. Its simply the church of science where man is God but they just dont (or wont) see it.

It seems to me that you yourself are blind to cosmology if you're making statements like this.

It's interesting that you would call cosmologists blind when you apparently don't know for yourself why they make some of the assertions that they do.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Just a note - a scientific theory is one based on available evidence, and is useful for making predictions. Indirect evidence is still evidence, and theorizing dark matter has made useful predictions. It is not a matter of being right or wrong, it is a matter of being more or less complete, and a picture of the universe with dark matter is more complete than one without dark matter.

And as for scientists accepting it as a done deal, that is simply not the case. What is often expressed is a form of verbal shorthand. It gets tedious to repeat "theorized dark matter," or "hypothetical dark matter;" but from nearly every source I have researched, the scientist readily admits the picture is far from complete.
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
Not to split hairs, but the tallest mountain in the solar system is on Mars :p (Olympus Mons)

Oh yeah, you are right. Forgot about Mars. ...but After Mars....Venus has the tallest. Then Earth. But my point was simply that before the mapping, the expectation was that it was devoid of mountains completely, and that just because most scientists were using expectations based on what they assumed from what is common HERE, they projected those assumptions onto the Venusian environment and POOF, were proven wrong.

In fact, I can list a few times in history when scientists/thinkers/authority figures made assumptions based on what they knew at the time, and were found to be totally wrong later on.

(1) Phlogiston Theory
(2) Ptolemaic Epicycles
(3) "the Flat Earthers"
(4) the Newtonian "clockwork" cosmology

...Now I know the whole history about how the belief in "dark Matter" came about, the whole "missing mass" debate, etc. (despite the fact we have just learned there are over 2 septillion more stars than they thought, that should alter the figures a bit...)

But do you really expect any sane thinking person to believe that there is a type of matter which exists only outside of galaxies, and has as its sole purpose for being there to act as a mechanism to make our observations fit with our mathematical theories???

Dark matter isn't some voodoo ad-hoc lazy explanation for the state of things, and my abridged version of its discovery doesn't really do it justice. However the evidence for dark matter is staggering. It's far from voodoo ad-hoc "science," it's good science.

I beg to differ. If you cannot disprove something, if it cannot be tested one way or another, it is not science at all just intellectual masturbation.
 
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