God did not create the Universe

[Primordial Annihilator]

Hi

I agree with you. I am trying to point out that the problem is fundamental to the nature of knowing. There actually cannot be any objective knowledge, with external senses and mind. For example objective knowledge is usually validated by control observations/experiments. Suppose, one may say that the knowledge 'Sun exists' is an objective knowledge since one sees it and another control person xyz also sees it. But these two observations -- of a) Sun existing and of b) the control person validating-- are actually by one person alone.

Om

Yes there is no objective unconnected observer within the universe.

Quite.

Which is why metaphysics will always be speculative.

 

[Meow Mix]

Yes there is no objective unconnected observer within the universe.

Quite.

Which is why metaphysics will always be speculative.

No, not all metaphysics.

"If something exists then it is what it is" <-- metaphysics, absolute, objective

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

No, not all metaphysics.

"If something exists then it is what it is" <-- metaphysics, absolute, objective

I cannot agree.

 

[PolyHedral]

Then you are not thinking logically enough. If something isn't what it is, how can it be coherent?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes there is no objective unconnected observer within the universe.

Yes there is, and he has a name:

The Most Interesting Man in the World.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Yes there is, and he has a name:

The Most Interesting Man in the World.

Hehe you mean the collapser of waveforms?

Perhaps milord perhaps....

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Then you are not thinking logically enough. If something isn't what it is, how can it be coherent?

Nothing is real...even solid seeming matter is composed of atoms that themselves are composed of mostly empty space...

 

[PolyHedral]

Which is composed of energy, which is not composed of anything. There is reality down there, eventually.

 

[Skeptisch]

Nothing is real...even solid seeming matter is composed of atoms that themselves are composed of mostly empty space...

“Show me a cultural relativist at thirty thousand feet and I'll show you a hypocrite. Airplanes are built according to scientific principles and they work. They stay aloft and they get you to a chosen destination. Airplanes built to tribal or mythological specifications such as the dummy planes of the Cargo cults in jungle clearings or the bees-waxed wings of Icarus don't”.
RD

 

[painted wolf]

“Show me a cultural relativist at thirty thousand feet and I'll show you a hypocrite. Airplanes are built according to scientific principles and they work. They stay aloft and they get you to a chosen destination. Airplanes built to tribal or mythological specifications such as the dummy planes of the Cargo cults in jungle clearings or the bees-waxed wings of Icarus don't”.
RD

Science is a culture? I thought it was a methodology.

wa:do

 

[atanu]

Yes there is, and he has a name:

The Most Interesting Man in the World.

Most interesting AE. :clap

But then that interesting man is the subject.

 

[atanu]

Which is composed of energy, which is not composed of anything. There is reality down there, eventually.

Hi

Pure energy would not know itself or its effects. A knowledge mechanism is essential. Some use the term: sat (energy)-cit (intelligence)-ananda (joy more joyful than the joy itself).

...

 

[PolyHedral]

Knowledge is a recording. You only need an organizing mechanism to make a recording, not anything inherent to the universe.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

&#8220;Show me a cultural relativist at thirty thousand feet and I'll show you a hypocrite. Airplanes are built according to scientific principles and they work. They stay aloft and they get you to a chosen destination. Airplanes built to tribal or mythological specifications such as the dummy planes of the Cargo cults in jungle clearings or the bees-waxed wings of Icarus don't&#8221;.
RD

You misunderstand me completely...nothing is real as there is no empirical reality to compare it with...no model of science can be compared with how things actually are...so everything we know is unreal modelling...abstract mathematical ideas...that are approximations of reality to varying degrees.

I am not saying science is 'wrong' because in fact it is at certain levels accurate enough for us to build microcomputers and super colliders...but as any particle physicist will tell you most of what you are taught about physics when young is abstract nonsense...the standard particle model for example is a highly inaccurate and increasingly convoluted model of what is actually going on at that level...(which causes even chemists to ponder the meaning behind what they do)..we turn now to M theory and membranes to guide us.
Eventually that will be replaced and so on until the very limit of our ability to sense and percieve...which is finite.

I am saying it can never be all knowing and all perceiving in any fundamentally empirical way.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Which is composed of energy, which is not composed of anything. There is reality down there, eventually.

Chaos is the final reality...from chaos comes all order.

Oi reckons..

 

[PolyHedral]

You misunderstand me completely.

I am not saying science is 'wrong' because in fact it is at certain levels accurate enough for us to build microcomputers and super colliders...but as any particle physicist will tell you most of what you are taught about physics when young is abstract nonsense...the standard particle model for example is highly inaccurate a model of what is actually going on...we turn now to M theory to guide us.
Eventually that will be replaced and so on until the very limit of our ability to sense and percieve...which is finite.

I am saying it can never be all knowing and all perceiving in any fundamentally empirical way.

But the actual mechanics underlying the universe are only finitely complex. Science can't be all-knowing, but it can be an arbitrarily close approximation.

Chaos is the final reality...from chaos comes all order.

Oi reckons..

So how is it that M theory, which is entirely ordered, predicts it perfectly?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

So how is it that M theory, which is entirely ordered, predicts it perfectly?

Because Chaos is simply 'data compressed' order.....highly complex and entirely non random...Chaos and Order are the same thing.

 

[Meow Mix]

Chaos is the final reality...from chaos comes all order.

Oi reckons..

So, then you agree that "If it exists then it exists as what it is" is absolutely true...?

Chaos = chaos

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

So, then you agree that "If it exists then it exists as what it is" is absolutely true...?

Chaos = chaos

What I call Chaos has to be in my view far more than I think it is.

 

[Meow Mix]

What I call Chaos has to be in my view far more than I think it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Regardless of what exists -- regardless of whether we know what it is -- if it exists, then it is what it is. Do you agree?

Anything that exists must exist as what it is, else it wouldn't be that and rather something else. Right?

So, "Anything that exists, exists as what it is" is an absolute metaphysical truth. Even if we don't know "what" exists, we can know that if anything exists then it exists as what it is.