God does not judge

[openyourmind]

I love how you look to blame someone else for the problems. Are you this way in everday life? When you make mistakes do you blame someone else too?

 

[Koldo]

Not someone else.
Just a specific being called God.

I wonder what it has to do with the argument....

 

[openyourmind]

The arguement is "God" is not judgeing us. He created us as we are and is teaching us all the things we need to know. When man kind learn a little information they run of to tamper with it. Not understanding what they have it is misused and leads to death and destruction. He continues to love and teach knowing we will reach enlightment. If we would slow down and listen then we could learn more and how to use these things for thier intended purpose safely. The judgement we all face is the judgement of ourselves. By the measure you use to judge others, you be judged. Your mind is the measure you use to judge others so could it not stand to reason the measure of your mind judges itself? When we stand before "God" it will be the thoughts in our minds that determine our fate!

 

[Koldo]

The judgement we all face is the judgement of ourselves. By the measure you use to judge others, you be judged. Your mind is the measure you use to judge others so could it not stand to reason the measure of your mind judges itself?

Let me see if i got it right, do you believe that we are our own judges?

Because that is what i believe in. Probably not in the exact same way you do, but that is roughly the idea that i believe in. Instead of God judging us, we are our own judges.

 

[sublime001]

Are you implying we are living in some kind of "matrix"?

 

[Bird123]

First, have a little bit of background, so you can see where this argument is coming from.

I am a computer programmer, and have become quite skilled at this art. (Yes, it is an art, for all but trivial designs.) However, a large part of programming is not actually writing the program, but fixing the program. Whether it's because you've wrote the wrong thing, or the program is being fed wrong data, something almost inevitably goes wrong, which needs to be fixed.

To return to theology, the concept of me "judging" my programs and punishing them for their bugs doesn't make much sense. At any time, I can pause my program during its workings, and investigate its entire state. I can make the computer step through each individual instruction, and watch as my program makes it decisions. If I had enough time and patience, I could theoretically work out what data influenced my program and why it made its decision, no matter how complex that program or the decision was.

...But the exact same idea applies if we take the universe to be a computer program, and God to be an almighty programmer. It is already established in various religious traditions that God is powerful enough to see the entire state of the universe, and has the nebulous ability to exist "outside" of time. Why should He blame small, trivial programs for mistakes, either in His writing or in the data they are being given to process? How does it make sense to punish an entirely mechanical entity for following instructions?

Yes, you can see that there is intelligence behind the system. Further, mistakes can teach great lessons. God counts on this as well. One must look beyond the petty things of mankind like wanting to rule, control, and punish if one is to see what is really going on. Good discussion.

 

[Breathe]

Most people who believe in God think that he created the matter.

I don't quite get what you mean. Did you mean he created matter?

If you think otherwise it will lead to some rather peculiar scenarios.

Hmm, for example?

Anyway, even if the programmer was not the developer of the OS, he is still messing with it, and has the utmost responsability over the changes he makes.

Even if these changed are self-created through natural means?

Divine AFK Mode ON!

LOL. I knew Divine AFK sounded pretty odd.

Now seriously, in both wolf and feral runs, God is still responsible for their creatures. He could have choosen not to create them in the first place, but he did. It is just like when you give birth to a child, whatever you do doesn't change your responsability over it.

I don't know. When I would do a wolfing run or feral run, I wouldn't be responsible for them. I'd check up on them every now and then, see how they are doing, but I wouldn't heal the sick ones or stop them from drowning or anything.

Or would I have been responsible for them, because I put the game on in the first place?

Why would me allowing them to be born, or "Him" allowing the aspects that created us, mean he had to be responsible though?

If God created the universe then he is responsible for everything in it, if he didn't then he is responsible for the results of the changes that he made to it.

Why?

Am I, for example, responsible for what my great grandchildren will do?

If we consider that God created all the natural laws, those laws would be his "creations", right?

If those natural laws allowed for a planet to appear and evolution to set in
And evolution birthed our wonderful selves

Is God still responsible for us?

Anyway, i like to think that God , at very least, created the consciouness of the other beings.

What do you mean by consciousness, and what do you mean by "of the other beings"?

Do you mean consciousness or Consciousness? There is a difference in some schools of thought. For example, I make a discernment between Consciousness and consciousness, or discernment-consciousness and what I suppose I'd say is "true Consciousness".

 

[Koldo]

I don't quite get what you mean. Did you mean he created matter?

Not necessarily, just that many people think he did.

Hmm, for example?

If you can assume God didn't create the matter, then we will start wondering what did God really do, what he exactly created. I mean, if you can suppose that God created just the laws of the nature, then why not believe that God created just , for example, the stars?

If we start putting restrictions on what he did, then we will get to the point where God did nothing at all. It is not incorrect to do so, but it is surely peculiar.

Even if these changed are self-created through natural means?

What do you mean?

I don't know. When I would do a wolfing run or feral run, I wouldn't be responsible for them. I'd check up on them every now and then, see how they are doing, but I wouldn't heal the sick ones or stop them from drowning or anything.

Or would I have been responsible for them, because I put the game on in the first place?

Why would me allowing them to be born, or "Him" allowing the aspects that created us, mean he had to be responsible though?

Let me put it straight: We are responsible for our actions.

Both directly and indirectly, and in varying degrees.

Your state of mind is very important to define how much responsible you were. For example, if you are a literally crazy person then you are a lot less responsible for your actions than a "normal" person. Why? Because the "normal" person can understand the direct results of its actions whereas the the crazy person can not.

The tricky part is that God is omniscient. If you are omnicienst then you are utterly responsible for your actions even indirectly! You can , in such case, understand both direct and indirect results of your actions, so you are responsible for both.

Why?

Am I, for example, responsible for what my great grandchildren will do?

If we consider that God created all the natural laws, those laws would be his "creations", right?

If those natural laws allowed for a planet to appear and evolution to set in
And evolution birthed our wonderful selves

Is God still responsible for us?

Responsability comes in varying degrees. You are indirectly responsible for what your grandchildren do, but just by a very small ammount.

Either way, it is just like i said, if it is directly or indirectly it doesn't matter when it comes down to God because he is omniscient.

We ,as humans, can not understand the indirect results of our actions whereas God can.

What do you mean by consciousness, and what do you mean by "of the other beings"?

Do you mean consciousness or Consciousness? There is a difference in some schools of thought. For example, I make a discernment between Consciousness and consciousness, or discernment-consciousness and what I suppose I'd say is "true Consciousness".

I believe that God was the first conscious being. There was no "I" except for him, and he was the one who created the others "I".

 

[McBell]

God does not judge

Which god?

If you are talking about the god of the Bible, I have to ask who it is that judges you by your own standards:

Mat 7:1-2
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

​

 

[atanu]

First, have a little bit of background, so you can see where this argument is coming from.

I am a computer programmer, and have become quite skilled at this art. (Yes, it is an art, for all but trivial designs.) However, a large part of programming is not actually writing the program, but fixing the program. Whether it's because you've wrote the wrong thing, or the program is being fed wrong data, something almost inevitably goes wrong, which needs to be fixed.

To return to theology, the concept of me "judging" my programs and punishing them for their bugs doesn't make much sense. At any time, I can pause my program during its workings, and investigate its entire state. I can make the computer step through each individual instruction, and watch as my program makes it decisions. If I had enough time and patience, I could theoretically work out what data influenced my program and why it made its decision, no matter how complex that program or the decision was.

...But the exact same idea applies if we take the universe to be a computer program, and God to be an almighty programmer. It is already established in various religious traditions that God is powerful enough to see the entire state of the universe, and has the nebulous ability to exist "outside" of time. Why should He blame small, trivial programs for mistakes, either in His writing or in the data they are being given to process? How does it make sense to punish an entirely mechanical entity for following instructions?

Suppose you have programmed an object called world with all beings. Now, you suspect that some beings in your object have developed their own intelligence/will and are not following the path set by you.

As a programmer what will you do?

Just an idea.

...

 

[Koldo]

Suppose you have programmed an object called world with all beings. Now, you suspect that some beings in your object have developed their own intelligence/will and are not following the path set by you.

As a programmer what will you do?

Just an idea.

...

"Oh my! I am the WORST AND the LUCKIEST programmer ever!!!"

That is what i would say.
Anyway, i would probably go tell the media about it.

 

[crocusj]

"Oh my! I am the WORST AND the LUCKIEST programmer ever!!!"

That is what i would say.
Anyway, i would probably go tell the media about it.

But what if the programme didn't let you get to the phone...and what if you got through to an automated response. You say you are the luckiest but you might just be the first vict-----------

 

[Koldo]

Huh?!

You never said the program could get out of the computer screen....
*scared*

 

[atanu]

Huh?!

You never said the program could get out of the computer screen....
*scared*

Many things may happen. The programmed being may capture the computer and write programs for the programmer to follow and at the same time seduce programmer's mate. Then what will the programmer do? So, it pays to be omniscient and omnipotent -- and judge in advance, i suppose.

...

 

[Muffled]

Let me see if i got it right, do you believe that we are our own judges?

Because that is what i believe in. Probably not in the exact same way you do, but that is roughly the idea that i believe in. Instead of God judging us, we are our own judges.

I would like to see you try doing that in court. My experience with Judges is that they are right even when they are wrong (according to my way of thinking).

 

[Muffled]

First, have a little bit of background, so you can see where this argument is coming from.

I am a computer programmer, and have become quite skilled at this art. (Yes, it is an art, for all but trivial designs.) However, a large part of programming is not actually writing the program, but fixing the program. Whether it's because you've wrote the wrong thing, or the program is being fed wrong data, something almost inevitably goes wrong, which needs to be fixed.

To return to theology, the concept of me "judging" my programs and punishing them for their bugs doesn't make much sense. At any time, I can pause my program during its workings, and investigate its entire state. I can make the computer step through each individual instruction, and watch as my program makes it decisions. If I had enough time and patience, I could theoretically work out what data influenced my program and why it made its decision, no matter how complex that program or the decision was.

...But the exact same idea applies if we take the universe to be a computer program, and God to be an almighty programmer. It is already established in various religious traditions that God is powerful enough to see the entire state of the universe, and has the nebulous ability to exist "outside" of time. Why should He blame small, trivial programs for mistakes, either in His writing or in the data they are being given to process? How does it make sense to punish an entirely mechanical entity for following instructions?

Free will. I suppose you could say that God creeated an AI.

Examples of God's judgement are Sodom and Gomorah, Jericho, the plagues on Egypt and the Bablyonian captivity.

 

[PolyHedral]

Suppose you have programmed an object called world with all beings. Now, you suspect that some beings in your object have developed their own intelligence/will and are not following the path set by you.
As a programmer what will you do?
Just an idea.
...

Probably just watch it. Or cash in my Turing Award and Nobel Prize. (Though there isn't such a thing as a path not set by me. If I set a path in the first place, it will be obeyed.)

Many things may happen. The programmed being may capture the computer and write programs for the programmer to follow and at the same time seduce programmer's mate. Then what will the programmer do? So, it pays to be omniscient and omnipotent -- and judge in advance, i suppose.
...

The only way that can happen is for the program to be able to communicate with the programmer, which is obviously easily preventable. It is impossible for the program to breach the computer if the programmer does not want them to.

Free will. I suppose you could say that God creeated an AI.

What type of machines have "free will"? Also, all computer programs are merely a mundane sequence of instructions. How can something like free will fit into that?