God existance paradox?

[Emp-Naval]

I use this whenever someone tries to talk me into an abrahamic relegion.
Sure it can use more organization, but what about the core concept.

A- God by definetion is neither an idiot, sadist, nor is he a masochist. God is also omniscient.
B- God is the most merciful being in the universe, loves all his creatures, wants for them to enter heaven, and gets angry when he is disobeyd.
C- God created everyone, including Satan , sinners, and nonbelievers.
D- Since god is omniscient he knew their nature and their end.
E- Based on C and D, God is either:
1) An idiot who doesn't know what he is doing.
2) A sadist that likes torturing humans in hell.
3) A masochist who despite being hurt that his loved creatures chose to doom themselves -which is what he is supposed to feel, refer to B-, enjoys his own pain.
4) Lastly he has no idea what was going to happen in the future.
F- E contradicts A and B. Hence God is non existant.
So what do you think?

 

[Emp-Naval]

I mainly like it because I can be a living proof that their god doesn't exist, makes me feel like a big deal lol =]

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Erm...well...
It sounds to me like a reworded version of the age old 'problem of evil'.

(Even has it's own wiki page...ahem...Problem of evil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

It's been argued and counter-argued for a long time, at great length, and with some sophistication.

 

[Emp-Naval]

well.... This is kinda embarrissing...

I thought I was the first one to see this =p

 

[4consideration]

well.... This is kinda embarrissing...

I thought I was the first one to see this =p

That's ok. IMO, there's a bright side. If you thought you came up with it on your own, that might be an indication you are thinking on your own. I think that's a good thing.

That other people have explored the arguments/concept(s) in depth before you is not a negative reflection on you, personally. I think it's just that it is not new to us. A lot of people here have read/discussed, etc. a lot of things for a long time. I think we all had a first time for exposure to whatever ideas we are discussing/debating.

 

[ruffen]

The fun thing with the problem of evil is that it has never been refuted properly, and is still a major problem with the concept of an all-knowing, almighty, good God.

The notion of an omnipotent God is as hopeless as that of a round square.

 

[Thana]

Personally, the answer is simple.
If we didn't have evil, we wouldn't have choice, if we didn't have choice we would just be robots programmed to do whatever God wants.

God didn't create evil, Evil is just an absence of God

I'm sure you'll look for holes to poke in that, But I don't mind.

If you'd rather think yourself all knowing about the concept of God, Then that's between you and your beliefs/morals/concience.

 

[sandandfoam]

I use this whenever someone tries to talk me into an abrahamic relegion.
Sure it can use more organization, but what about the core concept.

A- God by definetion is neither an idiot, sadist, nor is he a masochist. God is also omniscient.
B- God is the most merciful being in the universe, loves all his creatures, wants for them to enter heaven, and gets angry when he is disobeyd.
C- God created everyone, including Satan , sinners, and nonbelievers.
D- Since god is omniscient he knew their nature and their end.
E- Based on C and D, God is either:
1) An idiot who doesn't know what he is doing.
2) A sadist that likes torturing humans in hell.
3) A masochist who despite being hurt that his loved creatures chose to doom themselves -which is what he is supposed to feel, refer to B-, enjoys his own pain.
4) Lastly he has no idea what was going to happen in the future.
F- E contradicts A and B. Hence God is non existant.
So what do you think?

I think that like everyone else, myself included, you believe what you want.
I have no interest in talking you or anyone else into anything but I could be described as believing in the God of Abraham and your post has no relevance to the God in whom I believe.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't know anyone who believes in god because of logical consistency.

 

[Karl R]

A- God by definetion is neither an idiot, sadist, nor is he a masochist. God is also omniscient.
B- God is the most merciful being in the universe, loves all his creatures, wants for them to enter heaven, and gets angry when he is disobeyd.
C- God created everyone, including Satan , sinners, and nonbelievers.
D- Since god is omniscient he knew their nature and their end.
E- Based on C and D, God is either:
1) An idiot who doesn't know what he is doing.
2) A sadist that likes torturing humans in hell.
3) A masochist who despite being hurt that his loved creatures chose to doom themselves -which is what he is supposed to feel, refer to B-, enjoys his own pain.
4) Lastly he has no idea what was going to happen in the future.
F- E contradicts A and B. Hence God is non existant.
So what do you think?

It's not a proof of the non-existence of god. You haven't included enough premises to force a contradiction.

In your premises, you make no mention of hell. You appear to conclude that it exists, that people are sent there permanently, and that people are tortured there. That belief is not necessarily supported by those religions.

Many jews do not believe in hell. Others believe that there is a temporary purgatory where people feel intense shame for their wrongdoings.

Muslims do not believe in a permanent hell. They believe that the people suffering in hell can eventually learn from their mistakes, be redeemed, and enter paradise with allah. Under that belief, allah is not a sadist. He could be more accurately described as a very strict teacher. (I've known some strict teachers who also cared very deeply about their students.)

Universalist christians don't believe in a permanent hell. Most believe that everyone goes to heaven. During the last century, this belief has become accepted by some mainstream denominations.

In addition to being merciful, god is also just. Is god more merciful than just? More just than merciful? If god is more just than merciful, doesn't that suggest he might end up punishing people because it's the "right" thing to do?

People have been given free will. Free will implies that we are the ones who ultimately determine our nature. If I see a person running to jump off the edge of the cliff, I can predict the ultimate outcome of their action ... but I can't change their fate without interfering with their free will. The same could be true for god, but on a broader scale.

A person can accept the necessity of pain without enjoying it. (I just finished a month of physical therapy, so I have some personal experience with that.) The same principle could hold true for god.

You're on the right track ... to a limited extent. It is possible (with a few additional premises) to create a situation where there is a logical contradiction. However, that does not prove the non-existence of god. It proves that at least one premise must be incorrect.

If a believer already disagrees with one of your premises, guess which one they're going to pick.

 

[Repox]

:faint::angel2:

I use this whenever someone tries to talk me into an abrahamic relegion.
Sure it can use more organization, but what about the core concept.

A- God by definetion is neither an idiot, sadist, nor is he a masochist. God is also omniscient.
B- God is the most merciful being in the universe, loves all his creatures, wants for them to enter heaven, and gets angry when he is disobeyd.
C- God created everyone, including Satan , sinners, and nonbelievers.
D- Since god is omniscient he knew their nature and their end.
E- Based on C and D, God is either:
1) An idiot who doesn't know what he is doing.
2) A sadist that likes torturing humans in hell.
3) A masochist who despite being hurt that his loved creatures chose to doom themselves -which is what he is supposed to feel, refer to B-, enjoys his own pain.
4) Lastly he has no idea what was going to happen in the future.
F- E contradicts A and B. Hence God is non existant.
So what do you think?

Most ideas about God on your list are based on religion, so if you don't have religious beliefs they may not make sense. Even if you had another version of God, everyone would be critical because there is no empirical evidence of God. Given those caveats, I'll tell everyone my beliefs about God, heaven, angels, Satan, paradise, humans, and Jesus (God). Oh, and my two cents about religion and salvation.

God did not create the universe for humans, He created it as a prison for Satan. Humans are collateral damage from the fall of paradise which happened about 65 million years ago during the dinosaur era.

It happened after Satan, one of thirteen angels, attacked the other angels. After angels complained about being attacked, God put Satan in the deep freeze.

Then, in the middle of Satan's prison God created paradise on earth. For a while, things were going along well as God and HIs angels enjoyed the prehistoric creatures. Then, Satan came into the world and turned God's earthly creatures away. Subsequently, after the fall, humans evolved from lower forms of homo sapiens. Contrary to most religious believers, God was not pleased when millions of years later humans began to dominate other species. Apparently, God wanted nature to continue uninterrupted.

I had a dream about how God feels about humans. In the dream I was in a huge garbage pit shoveling debris. Suddenly, I could see dinosaur bones underground all around the earth. A voice said, "humans have desecrated my holy grave." That says it all. God prefers dinosaurs to Humans.

After humans started to dominate earth, God selected a small tribe ruled by Abraham to intervene in human affairs. Later, after things turned south for God and his chosen people, God came into the world as a man (Jesus Christ). God attempted to communicate and perhaps put his chosen people back on the right path, but to no avail. In particular, Romans didn't like Jesus making statements about his divinity. There was no trial and no crucifixion, Romans brutally murdered Jesus (God). Rather than accepting the sad reality of Jesus being rejected and murdered, his followers made up romantic stories about Jesus sacrificing to save humankind. Thus, we have two thousand years of Christianity.

One thing more that I need add is God a duality, always has been and always well be. There never has been a son of God. Because there is no son of God, there is no Christianity. It is easy to understand how followers of Jesus confused God's duality with "father and son." As most everyone knows, Christianity is based on the trinity. Without the son of God there is no trinity. Actually, there is no holy spirit either. That was made up by Christian leaders to give them authority.

What about the future? God and His angels will go on forever, Satan will vanish when the universe is gone, and humans will be a distant memory.:angel2:

 

[Akivah]

I use this whenever someone tries to talk me into an abrahamic relegion.

Does this work when someone is trying to proselytize you?

A- God by definetion is neither an idiot, sadist, nor is he a masochist. God is also omniscient.
B- God is the most merciful being in the universe, loves all his creatures, wants for them to enter heaven, and gets angry when he is disobeyd.
C- God created everyone, including Satan , sinners, and nonbelievers.
D- Since god is omniscient he knew their nature and their end.
E- Based on C and D, God is either:
1) An idiot who doesn't know what he is doing.
2) A sadist that likes torturing humans in hell.
3) A masochist who despite being hurt that his loved creatures chose to doom themselves -which is what he is supposed to feel, refer to B-, enjoys his own pain.
4) Lastly he has no idea what was going to happen in the future.
F- E contradicts A and B. Hence God is non existant.
So what do you think?

Your list doesn't work for all religions. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have very different ideas about the attributes of G-d, the afterlife, and humanity's relationship with G-d. For example, most of B is not in accordance with Judaism, which also invalidates options 2 and 3.

In Judaism, the existence of evil isn't a "problem". G-d tells us directly and plainly that He created evil. Our question is "what is the purpose of evil in G-d's Creation?"

 

[ChristineES]

I think the trouble we come across with this is that any concept of God is always going to beyond human comprehension. We are all guilty of judging any concept of God with human traits and human understanding.
If someone believes in God, as I do, he or she is going to believe that God is greater than we are.
What we see are not contradictions, but instead our lack of understanding of any God concept.
Welcome, Emp-naval, to the RF and thanks for the intriguing post.

 

[Man of Faith]

I use this whenever someone tries to talk me into an abrahamic relegion.
Sure it can use more organization, but what about the core concept.

A- God by definetion is neither an idiot, sadist, nor is he a masochist. God is also omniscient.
B- God is the most merciful being in the universe, loves all his creatures, wants for them to enter heaven, and gets angry when he is disobeyd.
C- God created everyone, including Satan , sinners, and nonbelievers.
D- Since god is omniscient he knew their nature and their end.
E- Based on C and D, God is either:
1) An idiot who doesn't know what he is doing.
2) A sadist that likes torturing humans in hell.
3) A masochist who despite being hurt that his loved creatures chose to doom themselves -which is what he is supposed to feel, refer to B-, enjoys his own pain.
4) Lastly he has no idea what was going to happen in the future.
F- E contradicts A and B. Hence God is non existant.
So what do you think?

E is flawed because punishing someone doesn’t mean that you enjoy it. Parents don’t enjoy spanking their children, but it is necessary for a means to an end. Also we know that God doesn’t like to be hurt because throughout history he has retaliated and still does today. He after all destroyed the whole world in a flood because of disobedience.

 

[Akivah]

E is flawed because punishing someone doesn’t mean that you enjoy it. Parents don’t enjoy spanking their children, but it is necessary for a means to an end. .... He after all destroyed the whole world in a flood because of disobedience.

That's true about the comparison to parenting. G-d punishes us for our own good, like a parent punishing their child for doing wrong. We're sad that we have to do it, but it is necessary for their development.

I disagree about the flood being world wide. In Judaism, the most common idea is that the flood was localized.

 

[Emp-Naval]

In your premises, you make no mention of hell. You appear to conclude that it exists, that people are sent there permanently, and that people are tortured there. That belief is not necessarily supported by those religions.

Bzzzzz, wrong, at least for Islam and Christianity. I'm an ex-muslim, and I read alot about christianity.
In both, the only people who gets out of hell are the believers of the respective religion. Satan, atheists, and even the majority of other religions' followers have a permenant visa for hell, usage is mandatory.
I'm talking about mainstream religion, not what 14 out of the 3 billions followers of these religions.
As for the jews, I honestly don't have the slightest clue.

In addition to being merciful, god is also just. Is god more merciful than just? More just than merciful? If god is more just than merciful, doesn't that suggest he might end up punishing people because it's the "right" thing to do?

Bzzzzzz, wrong again. God can be both merciful and just at the same time, I think the sole notion that god is not both perfectly just and merciful is herecy, lol.
Here is a solution I came up with in under 3 minutes, god rewards the believers with eternal pleasure. As for the guys who chose to defy his well, god snaps his fingers and goes like "Because you were naughty, you will vanish and you will not be granted eternal pleasure", pop all the others just vanish to NOWHERE, as simple as that, god surely had more time than me and could have came with a better idea than mine or hell anyway.

People have been given free will. Free will implies that we are the ones who ultimately determine our nature. If I see a person running to jump off the edge of the cliff, I can predict the ultimate outcome of their action ... but I can't change their fate without interfering with their free will. The same could be true for god, but on a broader scale.

So your god just sets back and relax, and watch people curse him, defy his devine orders, do all kind of horrible stuff, and he just shakes his head in disapproval.
I can live with that, the only problem it is not the case.
God has sent his fury countless times on non-believers in the bible and quran, he only lost this habbit recently, aka when people started using their heads to rationalise, instead of their toshies.

A person can accept the necessity of pain without enjoying it. (I just finished a month of physical therapy, so I have some personal experience with that.) The same principle could hold true for god.

Well first of, I'm sorry to hear that. But... Bzzzzzz wrong, seriously mate are you even trying.
'We need evil to define good', what a genious piece of wisdom.
Consider this, do you want to KNOW your kids are healthy, or do you prefer for polio to be non existent.
Do you want to KNOW that you are safe, or do you prefer for war to be unknown.
Do you want to KNOW you are blessed to have food, or do you prefer that death by hunger is just inconceivable.
I Can go like this for all day long, your logic is just plain wrong mate >.>

 

[Emp-Naval]

E is flawed because punishing someone doesn’t mean that you enjoy it. Parents don’t enjoy spanking their children, but it is necessary for a means to an end. Also we know that God doesn’t like to be hurt because throughout history he has retaliated and still does today. He after all destroyed the whole world in a flood because of disobedience.

Papapup... You are comparing two different things my friend.

Parents punish their children so thye can behave in the future, god punishes us so we can.... Actually I have no sodding idea why, what ultimate purpose will it serve to torture billions of souls for eternity, when eveything is settled?

Parents didn't know what their kids would be like before they were born, so they had to try their luck, god knew everthing that is to know, so he knew who will make a good creature and who is a no-no.

Most importantly, parents spank their children, god ********** burn them alive.

Sorry, but I don't see the resemblance...

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Can I reply to this as a Hindu, or are we just talking about Abrahamic Faiths here?

 

[Thana]

Can I reply to this as a Hindu, or are we just talking about Abrahamic Faiths here?

I use this whenever someone tries to talk me into an abrahamic relegion.

But you can go for it anyway, I just don't know how relevant it will be, Since he's trying to disprove the Abrahamic God.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

If so, I shall just reiterate what Christine said:

I think the trouble we come across with this is that any concept of God is always going to beyond human comprehension. We are all guilty of judging any concept of God with human traits and human understanding.
If someone believes in God, as I do, he or she is going to believe that God is greater than we are.
What we see are not contradictions, but instead our lack of understanding of any God concept.
Welcome, Emp-naval, to the RF and thanks for the intriguing post.