God hardens hearts?

[Me Myself]

There are two different Hebrew words used for "spared" [chamal] and "raised" [awbad], respectively. The verse Me Myself is referring to uses the Hebrew term for raised:

Exo 9:16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised [awbad] you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.​

If "spared" was the intended meaning, I would think the Holy Spirit would have inspired it.

May you elaborate on the sources from where you get this? Which bible do you use, etc.

Would be much appreaciated

 

[pwfaith]

There are two different Hebrew words used for "spared" [chamal] and "raised" [awbad], respectively. The verse Me Myself is referring to uses the Hebrew term for raised:

Exo 9:16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised [awbad] you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.​

If "spared" was the intended meaning, I would think the Holy Spirit would have inspired it.

I looked up Ex 9:16 on studylight.org - it offers it in the KJV and NASB. The NASB says "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth."

Remained - `amad according to their lexicon

I looked in my Strong's dictionary too and do not see awbad for raised. There is 'amad - to stand (5975)

5975 - 'amad, aw-mad'; a prim, root; to stand, in various relations - abide (behind, appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be_ present (self), raise up, remain, repair, +serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at al) stay (up), tarry.
​

Are you sure about awbad? I could not find awbad in the Hebrew or Greek lexicon. There was a abad that means "to destroy" or "a place of destruction".

McArthur Bible Commentary says:

Ex. 9:16 - See Romans 9:17 where Paul indicates God's sovereignty over Pharaoh.

Romans 9:17 - Quoted from Ex. 9:16. This again (as v. 15) is an OT quote to prove that God does sovereignly choose who will serve His purposes and how, raised you up. This refers to bringing forward or lifting up and was often used to describe the rise of leaders and countries to positions of prominence. Undoubtedly, Pharaoh thought his position and actions were of his own free choice to accomplish his own purpose, but in reality he was there to serve God's purpose.
​

I don't hold to any one translation in particular, I think comparing several gives us the best understanding (although I do think the ESV and NASB are the most accurate translations we have available to us in this current day and age)

Comparing several translations of Ex 9:16:

But I had a special reason for making you king. I decided to show you my power. I wanted my name to become known everywhere on earth. (NIrV)

But for this very purpose have I let you live, that I might show you My power, and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth. (Amplified)

13-19 - God said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning and confront Pharaoh. Tell him, 'God, the God of the Hebrews, says: Release my people so they can worship me. This time I am going to strike you and your servants and your people with the full force of my power so you'll get it into your head that there's no one like me anywhere in all the Earth. You know that by now I could have struck you and your people with deadly disease and there would be nothing left of you, not a trace. But for one reason only I've kept you on your feet: To make you recognize my power so that my reputation spreads in all the Earth. You are still building yourself up at my people's expense. You are not letting them go. So here's what's going to happen: At this time tomorrow I'm sending a terrific hailstorm—there's never been a storm like this in Egypt from the day of its founding until now. So get your livestock under roof—everything exposed in the open fields, people and animals, will die when the hail comes down.'" (Message)

But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. (NASB)

But I have spared you for a purpose—to show you my power and to spread my fame throughout the earth. ( Greek version reads to display my power in you; compare Rom 9:17.) (NLT)

And yet for this I have caused thee to stand, so as to show thee My power, and for the sake of declaring My Name in all the earth; (YLT)

But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. (ESV)
​

 

[pwfaith]

OK a little googling came up with awbad:

To tend and keep is another important attribute and function of the apostolic leader. To tend is the Hebrew word awbad and it means "to work, bring to pass, or husbandman." This implies a great deal of responsibility on the part of the one who is to tend. Even before tilling the ground was necessary for it to produce fruit Adam still had to tend the land. Perhaps what is more significant is that awbad carries the connotation of worship and is translated five times in the Old Testament as worshippers. For Adam tending to the garden involved worship and service. The apostolic leader must never lose the heart of servant in fact it is the heart of the servant that serves as the motivation behind the gift and calling as an apostolic leader. There is no room for self-serving leaders the body of Christ at any level.
Apostolic Paradigm from the life of Adam by MIC Assembly Network (MAN) of God on Myspace

​

I am not sure I see how this fits with Ex 9:16 though. awbad: work?

 

[james2ko]

OK a little googling came up with awbad:

To tend and keep is another important attribute and function of the apostolic leader. To tend is the Hebrew word awbad and it means "to work, bring to pass, or husbandman." This implies a great deal of responsibility on the part of the one who is to tend. Even before tilling the ground was necessary for it to produce fruit Adam still had to tend the land. Perhaps what is more significant is that awbad carries the connotation of worship and is translated five times in the Old Testament as worshippers. For Adam tending to the garden involved worship and service. The apostolic leader must never lose the heart of servant in fact it is the heart of the servant that serves as the motivation behind the gift and calling as an apostolic leader. There is no room for self-serving leaders the body of Christ at any level.
Apostolic Paradigm from the life of Adam by MIC Assembly Network (MAN) of God on Myspace

​

I am not sure I see how this fits with Ex 9:16 though. awbad: work?

whoops.."mybad" I meant to type in the letter "m" instead of "b". They are very close on the keyboard.. A typographical mistake on my part doesn't change the premise, right?

 

[pwfaith]

whoops.."mybad" I meant to type in the letter "m" instead of "b". They are very close on the keyboard.. A typographical mistake on my part doesn't change the premise, right?

Perhaps you can provide me with a link or Strong's concordance number on awmad, so I can look it up? Thanks (typo's happen all the time )

 

[james2ko]

I looked up Ex 9:16 on studylight.org - it offers it in the KJV and NASB. The NASB says "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth."

Remained - `amad according to their lexicon

I looked in my Strong's dictionary too and do not see awbad for raised. There is 'amad - to stand (5975)

5975 - 'amad, aw-mad'; a prim, root; to stand, in various relations - abide (behind, appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be_ present (self), raise up, remain, repair, +serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at al) stay (up), tarry.
​

Are you sure about awbad? I could not find awbad in the Hebrew or Greek lexicon. There was a abad that means "to destroy" or "a place of destruction".

McArthur Bible Commentary says:

Ex. 9:16 - See Romans 9:17 where Paul indicates God's sovereignty over Pharaoh.

Romans 9:17 - Quoted from Ex. 9:16. This again (as v. 15) is an OT quote to prove that God does sovereignly choose who will serve His purposes and how, raised you up. This refers to bringing forward or lifting up and was often used to describe the rise of leaders and countries to positions of prominence. Undoubtedly, Pharaoh thought his position and actions were of his own free choice to accomplish his own purpose, but in reality he was there to serve God's purpose.
​

I don't hold to any one translation in particular, I think comparing several gives us the best understanding (although I do think the ESV and NASB are the most accurate translations we have available to us in this current day and age)

Comparing several translations of Ex 9:16:

But I had a special reason for making you king. I decided to show you my power. I wanted my name to become known everywhere on earth. (NIrV)

But for this very purpose have I let you live, that I might show you My power, and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth. (Amplified)

13-19 - God said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning and confront Pharaoh. Tell him, 'God, the God of the Hebrews, says: Release my people so they can worship me. This time I am going to strike you and your servants and your people with the full force of my power so you'll get it into your head that there's no one like me anywhere in all the Earth. You know that by now I could have struck you and your people with deadly disease and there would be nothing left of you, not a trace. But for one reason only I've kept you on your feet: To make you recognize my power so that my reputation spreads in all the Earth. You are still building yourself up at my people's expense. You are not letting them go. So here's what's going to happen: At this time tomorrow I'm sending a terrific hailstorm—there's never been a storm like this in Egypt from the day of its founding until now. So get your livestock under roof—everything exposed in the open fields, people and animals, will die when the hail comes down.'" (Message)

But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. (NASB)

But I have spared you for a purpose—to show you my power and to spread my fame throughout the earth. ( Greek version reads to display my power in you; compare Rom 9:17.) (NLT)

And yet for this I have caused thee to stand, so as to show thee My power, and for the sake of declaring My Name in all the earth; (YLT)

But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. (ESV)
​

Although helpful, we must proceed with great caution when establishing a doctrine/interpretation based solely on different English translations. As much as they claim unbiased allegiance, it tends to sneak in-- sometimes unwittingly. When a term is controversial or unclear, it's best to turn to the original languages for clarification. In our case, the term "awmad" is the term used in the currently available manuscripts. I see you've already posted the results. I'll repost for clarification:

H5975
עמד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally and figuratively, intransitively and transitively): - abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.

Now let's compare it to the term "spared" used in some English translations, but absent in our passage from the original language:

H2550 חמל
châmal
khaw-mal'
A primitive root; to commiserate; by implication to spare: - have compassion, (have) pity, spare.

This is a prime example of how a popular belief (in our case, universalism) may cause some translators to inject their biases in their respective translations.

 

[pwfaith]

Although helpful, we must proceed with great caution when establishing a doctrine/interpretation based solely on different English translations. As much as they claim unbiased allegiance, it tends to sneak in-- sometimes unwittingly. When a term is controversial or unclear, it's best to turn to the original languages for clarification. In our case, the term "awmad" is the term used in the currently available manuscripts. I see you've already posted the results. I'll repost for clarification:

H5975
עמד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally and figuratively, intransitively and transitively): - abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.

Now let's compare it to the term "spared" used in some English translations, but absent in our passage from the original language:

H2550 חמל
châmal
khaw-mal'
A primitive root; to commiserate; by implication to spare: - have compassion, (have) pity, spare.

This is a prime example of how a popular belief (in our case, universalism) may cause some translators to inject their biases in their respective translations.

Sorry I don't see any of this changing my understanding of the passage, posted earlier. Can I ask how you came to chamal for spared (in the NLT) instead of nasa (which means "to lift up")? If amad means "raise up" and nasa (Hebrew for spared according to Strong's) means "lift up" how would it be an incorrect translation?

Whether it's amad (remain) or nasa (spared) - imo the understanding/meaning of all the verses above is not changed. You red bolded "raise up" but right next to it is "remain". As said earlier, and now confirmed, imo, looking at the Hebrew texts and definitions - God allowed Pharaoh to stay (remain and likely sparing him from destruction - by his own hands or the hands of others) in a position of authority, to fulfill God's will later for His people.

 

[james2ko]

Can I ask how you came to chamal for spared (in the NLT) instead of nasa (which means "to lift up")? If amad means "raise up" and nasa (Hebrew for spared according to Strong's) means "lift up" how would it be an incorrect translation?

I simply looked up the Hebrew term for "spared" [chamal], as it literally appears in English in the NLT (check my previous post). Chamal is the term used for "spared". Nawsaw (the term you used) is the Hebrew term for "spare". Apparently there are two different Hebrew terms for "spared" and "spare" with different definitions. Neither one appear in the original Hebrew of the passage in question yet it is utilized in the NLT.

Sorry I don't see any of this changing my understanding of the passage, posted earlier.Whether it's amad (remain) or nasa (spared) - imo the understanding/meaning of all the verses above is not changed. You red bolded "raise up" but right next to it is "remain". As said earlier, and now confirmed, imo, looking at the Hebrew texts and definitions - God allowed Pharaoh to stay (remain and likely sparing him from destruction - by his own hands or the hands of others) in a position of authority, to fulfill God's will later for His people.

I wasn't attempting to change your understanding. I was merely illustrating how bias can seep into a translation. As you can see, the NLT's translation of the passage is not true to the original language. I'm not discounting the NLT. I use it myself. Although not without comparing it to the original.

 

[waitasec]

god hardens hearts cause he's not omniscient.

 

[pwfaith]

I simply looked up the Hebrew term for "spared" [chamal], as it literally appears in English in the NLT (check my previous post). Chamal is the term used for "spared". Nawsaw (the term you used) is the Hebrew term for "spare". Apparently there are two different Hebrew terms for "spared" and "spare" with different definitions. Neither one appear in the original Hebrew of the passage in question yet it is utilized in the NLT.

Can you provide me with your resource? Is it online or a book? I have checked every online resource I have and cannot find chamal used for Ex 9:16.

I wasn't attempting to change your understanding. I was merely illustrating how bias can seep into a translation. As you can see, the NLT's translation of the passage is not true to the original language. I'm not discounting the NLT. I use it myself. Although not without comparing it to the original.

No, sorry I still don't see. I really don't understand what resource you have been using to confirm Chamal instead of nasa (Original Word )#n; Translated word Nasa'; Phonetic Spelling naw-saw'). What you quoted above does not show me how you came to that conclusion.

All that said, I don't know why NLT chose "spared" honestly. Perhaps they simply thought it conveyed the thought of the passage more than "raised up" did, even though "remain" or "raised up" is more literal for the Hebrew word used. Look at the confusion "raised up" caused just in this thread lol

 

[james2ko]

Can you provide me with your resource? Is it online or a book? I have checked every online resource I have and cannot find chamal used for Ex 9:16. No, sorry I still don't see. I really don't understand what resource you have been using to confirm Chamal instead of nasa (Original Word )#n; Translated word Nasa'; Phonetic Spelling naw-saw'). What you quoted above does not show me how you came to that conclusion. All that said, I don't know why NLT chose "spared" honestly. Perhaps they simply thought it conveyed the thought of the passage more than "raised up" did, even though "remain" or "raised up" is more literal for the Hebrew word used. Look at the confusion "raised up" caused just in this thread lol

As I mentioned in the last sentence of my previous post, neither Hebrew term for "spare"[nawsaw] or "spared" [chamal] appear in the passage in question --Ex 9:16. Yet the English word "spared" appears in several English translations, including the NLT. The translators took the liberty in conveying a meaning without being true to the text. That is called paraphrasing. Good for those "read-the-bible-in-a year" programs. Not very good for doctrinal or interpretive analysis.

 

[pwfaith]

As I mentioned in the last sentence of my previous post, neither Hebrew term for "spare"[nawsaw] or "spared" [chamal] appear in the passage in question --Ex 9:16. Yet the English word "spared" appears in several English translations, including the NLT. The translators took the liberty in conveying a meaning without being true to the text. That is called paraphrasing. Good for those "read-the-bible-in-a year" programs. Not very good for doctrinal or interpretive analysis.

Agreed. I always look at the Translation Continuum to know where a translation falls - if it is more "word-for-word" or more "thought-for-thought". I don't think the "thought-for-thought" ones are completely unrealiable, but I agree with using caution and wisdom. I almost always use the "thought-for-thought" translations with other translations, and only for reading for fun or just to help me find a way to verbalize or understand a passage better. I guess as an "aid" sometimes, more than anything, and there have been times where I compared and thought "where did they get that from" but most of the time it's in fair agreement with the other translations just written in a more understandable way.

Here is the Translation Continuum

 

[Awoon]

Could someone explain this passage to me? It appears harsh to me. Perhaps the context of what is going on would be helpful. Thanks!

And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. (Exodus 14:17)

The writer of the story put those words to be spoken by God.

 

[sojourner]

but if that were true, then it means he takes away free choice... and i really dont think he does that.

Not sure free will was on the radar of the Exodus author. Just because you can't reconcile it, does not allow you to put words in the mouths of the authors.