God hates amputees...science cures.

[sirat]

If I may, aside from using humor in a gentle way, perhaps sirat's point may have to do with the idea that, hand or not, miserable and short or not, all life (from his point of view) is a gift of God that we should enjoy and appreciate.

Which I agree with, other than the God part. However, I also think it's great when science figures stuff out and actually makes someone's life even better.

salaam friend,

Thank you for that.

In the tradition I study stories or jokes are often used to tell meanings because they can carry information at several levels or from several perspectives.

The situation about the hand is like this story:

Three young children were arguing over marbles they found. Just then, mulla Nasruddin walked by. The children handed him the marbles and asked him to divide them between them. There were 12 marbles. The mulla considered the problem and asked the children how he should divide them. Fairly, the three shouted as one. Ah said the mulla, but fairly as a man or fairly as God would do? Fairly as God would do they agreed. So the mulla gave 10 to one and one to each of the other two.

In these sorts of situations where one considers quality of life, the entire premise is turned upside down. Living a life without cares or burdens when young and dying at the appropriate time is considered 'good'. This is such a socially engendered concept that it is very hard to break from one's thinking and seeing. Scientists and sufi's are supposed to see things without predjudice. It is very hard to do that.

But, if you look at how God treats his favorites, then you see how upside down ideas of good and bad, easy and hard, painless and painful can be. Life flips between two pillars, punishment and reward. It is most difficult to figure out which is which sometimes. This also works if you replace the concept of God with truth. How does this physical world actually treat people. Given that judge has no conflict of interest and ruthlessly enforces the same rules for everyone, isn't the outcome always fair? Getting someone to break out from conditioning to thinking about this problem is very challenging.

Again, thank you for your comment.

wa salaam
sirat

 

[Koldo]

salaam friend,

Thank you for that.

In the tradition I study stories or jokes are often used to tell meanings because they can carry information at several levels or from several perspectives.

The situation about the hand is like this story:

Three young children were arguing over marbles they found. Just then, mulla Nasruddin walked by. The children handed him the marbles and asked him to divide them between them. There were 12 marbles. The mulla considered the problem and asked the children how he should divide them. Fairly, the three shouted as one. Ah said the mulla, but fairly as a man or fairly as God would do? Fairly as God would do they agreed. So the mulla gave 10 to one and one to each of the other two.

In these sorts of situations where one considers quality of life, the entire premise is turned upside down. Living a life without cares or burdens when young and dying at the appropriate time is considered 'good'. This is such a socially engendered concept that it is very hard to break from one's thinking and seeing. Scientists and sufi's are supposed to see things without predjudice. It is very hard to do that.

But, if you look at how God treats his favorites, then you see how upside down ideas of good and bad, easy and hard, painless and painful can be. Life flips between two pillars, punishment and reward. It is most difficult to figure out which is which sometimes. This also works if you replace the concept of God with truth. How does this physical world actually treat people. Given that judge has no conflict of interest and ruthlessly enforces the same rules for everyone, isn't the outcome always fair? Getting someone to break out from conditioning to thinking about this problem is very challenging.

Again, thank you for your comment.

wa salaam
sirat

Oh, poor those who always lower their heads on the sight of the judge, as for those the sentence is often deadly. Blessed are those who unsheath their blades ready to behead the judge when the time comes, for their courage shall save them.

That is all i have to say.

 

[Gunfingers]

The thing you should take from Auto's OP is not anything about the existence or non-existence of any gods, but about the fact that science works, and it consistently makes our lives better. It doesn't matter if it's inspired by any deity, but it does matter if people use a deity as an excuse to oppose scientific progress. That is the part that we are trying to stop.

 

[sirat]

The thing you should take from Auto's OP is not anything about the existence or non-existence of any gods, but about the fact that science works, and it consistently makes our lives better. It doesn't matter if it's inspired by any deity, but it does matter if people use a deity as an excuse to oppose scientific progress. That is the part that we are trying to stop.

salaam friend,

If I might make a suggestion, to get people to stop opposing science, do not confound it with the argument of God hates amputees. It is opposite to the goal you stated. It is like peeing in your own soup. It is not a unifying statement, and unity to support progress is a great thing. In the Baha'i religion for instance you would find this clearly taught too. Maybe as a small suggestion, consider the goal and method and make sure they are in line with each other.

Even that noble goal you have stated is confounded by science itself, by Nobel's goal. The number of amputees has been greatly increased by science. Before better living through chemistry a few thousand people could kill each other in a day. Now, two army corps can wipe each other from the map in less than a day. Indeed, Oppenheimer has made that record seem small by comparison. And better science has allowed us to keep more wounded alive so the number returning from war without limbs grows and grows because of science. That is not to say it is science that is bad. A scientist hands the military a gun, a bomb, an explosive and bad things happen. A gracious defense system offers a few pennies on the dollar to research medical treatments to take care of the wounded warriors. Scientists pick up those pennies and think they are doing good. There is way too much blindness.

Nor is the argument against science cleanly broken down by atheist, religionist lines. When atheists are in charge they have all sorts of purges to kill scientists. Look at the Soviet history. Look at the Cultural Revolution in China. Atheists can be as quick to appeal to emotion and killing as anyone. If you need proof of that, scan this thread alone. The problem is a human problem. To solve it requires clear thinking and visibility of all of the variables. Straw men do not fix real men.

So, someone offers a challenging title but has good intentions. I tell a joke hoping to change the way someone might look at the issue. You are friendly in trying to help me see what is meant. If we work like this to understand and to be understood, if we work as if the world is one country and we are all its citizens, then there is hope for people separating what is good from war and recognizing the true nature of progress. Science will not further the good of man while it is simply collateral funding, collateral damage from warmongering.

Again, I am not looking to 'win' an argument. If anything it is more useful to lose one because I work at learning from that. If I have a goal it is perhaps a shared one, to recognize the true aspects of progress and where that comes from.

wa salaam
sirat

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

I am just waiting for someone to come along and say "God created the scientists so that one day they would be able to heal amputees. It was god's plan all along."

 

[sirat]

I am just waiting for someone to come along and say "God created the scientists so that one day they would be able to heal amputees. It was god's plan all along."

salaam friend,

Then perhaps you should look to the past instead of the future for such a reference.

From the Master (may my life be a sacrifice unto him) Abdul Baha, 1911, Paris

GOD IS THE GREAT COMPASSIONATE PHYSICIAN WHO ALONE GIVES TRUE HEALING
October 19th

All true healing comes from God! There are two causes for sickness, one is material, the other spiritual. If the sickness is of the body, a material remedy is needed, if of the soul, a spiritual remedy.

If the heavenly benediction be upon us while we are being healed then only can we be made whole, for medicine is but the outward and visible means through which we obtain the heavenly healing. Unless the spirit be healed, the cure of the body is worth nothing. All is in the hands of God, and without Him there can be no health in us!

There have been many men who have died at last of the very disease of which they have made a special study. Aristotle, for instance, who made a special study of the digestion, died of a gastronomic malady. Aviseu was a specialist of the heart, but he died of heart disease. God is the great compassionate Physician who alone has the power to give true healing.

All creatures are dependent upon God, however great may seem their knowledge, power and independence.

Behold the mighty kings upon earth, for they have all the power in the world that man can give them, and yet when death calls they must obey, even as the peasants at their gates.

Look also at the animals, how helpless they are in their apparent strength! For the elephant, the largest of all animals, is troubled by the fly, and the lion cannot escape the irritation of the worm. Even man, the highest form of created beings, needs many things for his very life; first of all he needs air, and if he is deprived of it for a few minutes, he dies. He is also dependent on water, food, clothing, warmth, and many other things. On all sides he is surrounded by dangers and difficulties, against which his physical body alone cannot cope. If a man looks at the world around him, he will see how all created things are dependent and are captive to the laws of Nature.

Man alone, by his spiritual power, has been able to free himself, to soar above the world of matter and to make it his servant.

Without the help of God man is even as the beasts that perish, but God has bestowed such wonderful power upon him that he might ever look upward, and receive, among other gifts, healing from His divine Bounty.

But alas! man is not grateful for this supreme good, but sleeps the sleep of negligence, being careless of the great mercy which God has shown towards him, turning his face away from the light and going on his way in darkness.

It is my earnest prayer, that ye be not like unto this, but rather that ye keep your faces steadfastly turned to the light, so that ye may be as lighted torches in the dark places of life.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 19)

It was God's plan all along. And He said so through his prophets.

wa salaam

sirat

 

[Gunfingers]

salaam friend,

Alaykum As Salaamu

I have no interest in defending the actions of atheists, or in hanging my hat on any atheistic regime. No ideology has ever proven itself safe from intolerance or violence. I have never said anything about the god of Abraham hating amputees, and, as mentioned earlier, will not have my actions associated with intolerants simply by virtue of our sharing a lack of belief in any deities.

I understand that one of the many ways that science has improved our lives is our ability to kill people. The fact remains, however, that casualties in war have dropped drastically. In addition, while an atomic bomb can kill thousands of people at once that same technology can provide clean energy to millions, saving thousands of lives and improving the quality of life of millions.

To summarize, any claim that science or scientific progress is, by its very nature, bad is wrong.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

salaam friend,

It was God's plan all along. And He said so through his prophets.

wa salaam

sirat

Alaykum as-Salaam,

Thank you.

 

[Meishere]

G-d doesn't hate amputees...he's just trying to get them there one piece at a time.



That was just awful of me, wasn't it?

That deserves a frubal.

 

[Meishere]

[youtube]JgaMZT1Z2dw[/youtube]
UCLA doctors perform hand transplant.

God's soldiers disfigure woman, science makes it better. (warning, first image somewhat horrific)

Why all the hostility against someone you don't believe in? Why even propose the question?

 

[Where Is God]

Why all the hostility against someone you don't believe in? Why even propose the question?

Because people who do believe in him take away our rights. And they often kill people in his name too.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am just waiting for someone to come along and say "God created the scientists so that one day they would be able to heal amputees. It was god's plan all along."

According to Scripture 'now' is the time for spiritual healing or curing.

The cures Jesus performed were on a small scale showing what he will accomplish on a Large or Grand scale during his 1000-year reign over earth.

So now is the time to be healed spiritually by putting on a Christ-like personality. -John 13vs34,35

During Jesus millennial reign, Jesus will then fulfill the promise to Abraham that all families of earth will be blessed ,and all nations of earth will be blessed.
Blessed with healing or curing. Rev 22v2; Gen 22vs17,18.