Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
How so?
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God: How Jews and Muslims express faith
- Thread starter Epic Beard Man
- Start date
How so?
The inclusion of a belief as Jesus as messiah; Muhammad, and eternal hellfire. Noahides are also permitted to eat pig, drink alcohol and eat blood. So the theology and restrictions are different.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
minor differences in social customs and beliefs but none the less the core is the same.
Imo eternal hell is a big distinction, at least in the way Islam portrays it, as well as sheytan and jinn.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Well the concept of Gehinnom is similar to Jahannam
Tumah
Veteran Member
More like, "hey guys, you're all great and I love all My fans. And also, if you're interested, there's a special club that you can join that gets signed autographs and insider tips from Me. There's a fee, so it's up to you if you want to go that way. No pressure. Just letting you know the option's out there."
I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Noahidism has Jewish elements because it comes from the same G-d as Judaism does. I'm not sure what you mean by Judaic thought vs. global.
Tumah
Veteran Member
It seems to be a combination of the Jewish and Christian versions from what I see on Wikipedia.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Well, if God loved all his fans equally a "special club" would not be needed. This is where we dive into the idea of unconditional love. With respect to the whole Noahide versus Globalism, I was referring to the idea that Noahidism still contains Jewish roots and emphasize Judaic thought. In comparing it to Islam it embraces (not Judaic thought per se) but Jewish prophets and their messages therein. The idea that God is not for one people, but for all people. that is, at least what it appears to me when I read the teachings. But of course as you and I discussed you perceive the faith heretical as did RamBam.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
So are you saying that there is no belief in the teachings today at least in Orthodox Judaism of a Gehinnom?
Tumah
Veteran Member
I see what you're saying. I don't want to say anything about unconditional love, because it supposes that G-d has human emotion and that no one can ever become especially bad or especially good, two things I don't think are true.
But I think we have a different idea and different outlook to this whole story. It's axiomatic in Jewish sources that the world was created in order that there be people who fulfill the Torah and the Torah likewise when studied and practiced, sustains the continued existence of the Creation. So even before the creation of the world, there needed to be a people to do this and that people would be called 'Israel'. Who that nation would be though, was up for grabs. The reason why the specific two million people who stood at Mt. Sinai were chosen, is because of their forefathers (see Deut. 10:15), not because of some innate superiority. According to the Midrash, we didn't even have a choice, G-d uprooted Mt. Sinai and would have flattened us on the spot if we chose to decline. The job needed to be done, we were chosen to do it. Once we're assigned to this task, we also gain the tools to to perform our task and reap the benefits of performing an important duty. The downside is that because the task must be done, it's not just the reward that's better, but the risks as well: 613+ chances to elevate oneself in Heaven are also 613+ chances to descend deeper into Hell. As opposed to 7 chances up and 7 down. That's what it's about. Any non-Jew who's interested in performing this task and reaping the benefits of it, is welcome as well. According to the Midrash, aside from assigning a people who can't decline, G-d also offered the Torah to all the other nations, who did decline, but the offer still stands.
With that introduction, I think it might be understandable why "bias" is inappropriate. We have to work 89 times harder than a non-Jew (more than that really, since we have Rabbinical requirements) so I don't think it's a wonder why G-d would reciprocate. The difference between me and you though isn't that I'm special and you're not. It's that my forefather took steps to enable his children to enter the Mosaic covenant and yours didn't. It's all about the choices we make. You could take the same steps my forefather did and enter it as well.
There's a few different points here.
I think what you mean as "global" just means "inclusive of other preceding Abrahamic faiths". I don't think there's a question that Islam doesn't embrace Rastafarianism, Zoroastrian, Hinduism, etc. In that respect, there's no difference of Judaism not embracing Islam then there is of Islam not embracing Baha'i.
With regard to the idea of messengers, in Jewish sources non-Jewish prophets have existed. Maimonides is of the opinion that it's entirely possible for a non-Jew to become a prophet. The question is simply whether or not a prophet would bring Islam. According to Judaism, no, that's impossible because it goes against already established principles. There is no need for Islam, because Noahidism already exists. A non-Jewish prophet would simply reinforce the 7 Noahide Laws for non-Jews or perhaps admonish the Jews for not following the Torah. With the exception of Adam and Noah who introduced the Noahide Laws and Moses who introduced the Jewish Laws, this is what all prophets - Jewish or not - have always done.
The idea that G-d is for all people is present in Judaism. We don't claim exclusive right to worship. We claim exclusive method of worship. That only through Noahidism or Judaism can one approach G-d. Anyone can do it, but only through one of those two paths (or for Jews, only through the latter). We pray multiple times a day that G-d reveal Himself so that all people recognize G-d and worship Him.
No, I'm saying that according to how Wikipedia describes the Islamic concept of Jahannam, it appears to be a combination of the Jewish concept of Gehinnom and the Christian concept of Hell. We believe in Gehinnom, it's just not the exactly the same as described in the Wikipedia article on Jahannam.
Definition of priest
ne authorized to perform the sacred rites of a religion especially as a mediatory agent between humans and God; specifically :an Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, or Roman Catholic clergyman ranking below a bishop and above a deacon
As a kingdom of priests, we are authorized to perform sacred rites - and we do in fact have lots of rituals. I don't see anything here about being a light to other nations
I would have thought you'd go to a accepted Jewish online Torah:
5 And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth.
6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."
Some quotes from around the web from non Muslims on what being chosen in the Jewish Biblical context means:
"Jews specifically have been chosen to, or have chosen to, be of service to others so that the world may be a more just place."
Rabbi Alan Lurie
"This is the idea of the Chosen People -- a nation of individuals who have been given the opportunity to sense G‑d's closeness, hear His truth and relay his message to the world. All agree that it was the Jews that introduced the world to monotheism and a system of ethics and morals that has shaped the modern view of life and its purpose."
Are the Jews the Chosen People?
"Jews were chosen to be a light to the Nations"
Rabbi Tovia Singer
I'm sure the further back we go, to the classical commentaries, a similar explanation will be given by the learned Jewish Scholars.
Interesting.... I wonder, however, if the perception of Jews is based on what "evolved" but not necessarily as God wanted.
Could it be that in Ex. 19:6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, the concept was for Israel to be a whole "Kingdom of priests" to the whole world? And then through sin, it became just the Levites, from there it bacame a tribe that was a priest unto their own country. etc?
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Well, if we take the early Biblical narratives literally I think one can see that God has already been ascribed some human qualities already, as we see in Acts 7:34 "I have indeed seen the oppression of My people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to deliver them. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt." A demonstration of concern is a human trait we see daily (e.g. parental love). I also have to disagree with you in that nobody cannot become truly bad and truly good as a Jew, one need not look any further than Hitler, someone whi is the epitome of pure evil in my book.
[QUOTE="But I think we have a different idea and different outlook to this whole story. It's axiomatic in Jewish sources that the world was created in order that there be people who fulfill the Torah and the Torah likewise when studied and practiced, sustains the continued existence of the Creation. So even before the creation of the world, there needed to be a people to do this and that people would be called 'Israel'. Who that nation would be though, was up for grabs. The reason why the specific two million people who stood at Mt. Sinai were chosen, is because of their forefathers (see Deut. 10:15), not because of some innate superiority. According to the Midrash, we didn't even have a choice, G-d uprooted Mt. Sinai and would have flattened us on the spot if we chose to decline. The job needed to be done, we were chosen to do it. Once we're assigned to this task, we also gain the tools to to perform our task and reap the benefits of performing an important duty. The downside is that because the task must be done, it's not just the reward that's better, but the risks as well: 613+ chances to elevate oneself in Heaven are also 613+ chances to descend deeper into Hell. As opposed to 7 chances up and 7 down. That's what it's about. Any non-Jew who's interested in performing this task and reaping the benefits of it, is welcome as well. According to the Midrash, aside from assigning a people who can't decline, G-d also offered the Torah to all the other nations, who did decline, but the offer still stands.
With that introduction, I think it might be understandable why "bias" is inappropriate. We have to work 89 times harder than a non-Jew (more than that really, since we have Rabbinical requirements) so I don't think it's a wonder why G-d would reciprocate. The difference between me and you though isn't that I'm special and you're not. It's that my forefather took steps to enable his children to enter the Mosaic covenant and yours didn't. It's all about the choices we make. You could take the same steps my forefather did and enter it as well.[/QUOTE]
Interesting...Now, I told another RF member here that when engaging another person's faith that I try to not examine it with a secular thought as I understand I lose the spirit of what you're trying to convey. But just from off what you've just said, and as you've stated, we just have very different outlooks on things. On bold point two I didn' realize God raised an entire mountain and forced an entire nation of people to follow a set of laws that is a whole new level of no freewill. I wonder why God didn't choose the Mayans or the Aztecs? It often perplexes me that usually in those regions (and I even include Islam on this) that God has designated his grace to a specific region of people. But as far as working harder, well I can make the argument that I work twice as hard as you considering my day to day struggles. I could be suffering from PTSD which is something you may not be suffering from and have to task myself to maintain medication upkeep, bodily maintenence, my living situation, my employment all that to avoid a mental collapse. the idea of who works harder than who is quite subjective because to believe in anything in the metaphysical realm is a struggle in itself especially in the face of continuing secularlism.
[QUOTE="There's a few different points here.
I think what you mean as "global" just means "inclusive of other preceding Abrahamic faiths". I don't think there's a question that Islam doesn't embrace Rastafarianism, Zoroastrian, Hinduism, etc. In that respect, there's no difference of Judaism not embracing Islam then there is of Islam not embracing Baha'i.
With regard to the idea of messengers, in Jewish sources non-Jewish prophets have existed. Maimonides is of the opinion that it's entirely possible for a non-Jew to become a prophet. The question is simply whether or not a prophet would bring Islam. According to Judaism, no, that's impossible because it goes against already established principles. There is no need for Islam, because Noahidism already exists. A non-Jewish prophet would simply reinforce the 7 Noahide Laws for non-Jews or perhaps admonish the Jews for not following the Torah. With the exception of Adam and Noah who introduced the Noahide Laws and Moses who introduced the Jewish Laws, this is what all prophets - Jewish or not - have always done.
The idea that G-d is for all people is present in Judaism. We don't claim exclusive right to worship. We claim exclusive method of worship. That only through Noahidism or Judaism can one approach G-d. Anyone can do it, but only through one of those two paths (or for Jews, only through the latter). We pray multiple times a day that G-d reveal Himself so that all people recognize G-d and worship Him.
No, I'm saying that according to how Wikipedia describes the Islamic concept of Jahannam, it appears to be a combination of the Jewish concept of Gehinnom and the Christian concept of Hell. We believe in Gehinnom, it's just not the exactly the same as described in the Wikipedia article on Jahannam.[/QUOTE]
I'm well aware Islam is not inclusive in the sense of other faiths due to the specific beliefs that it holds, and like Judaism, Islam proclaims to be the one true faith as well, so in that respect you all are in the same boat. But one thing in your latter post is peculiar to me as you said:
"We don't claim exclusive right to worship. We claim exclusive method of worship. That only through Noahidism or Judaism can one approach G-d."
I would definitely contend that there may be a level of indirect exclusivity on Judaic thought concerning God's interaction with the Jewish people (e.g. picking the Jews to uphold the law as opposed to the Mayans and Olmecs).
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Could be
Tumah
Veteran Member
You need to go back and figure out what your complaint is. You started off complaining that Jews are supposed to be a light to the nations. But then you keep quoting to me verses about Jews being chosen to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Nothing there about light to the nations.
So you've basically quoted to me a phrase whose context you are unfamiliar with - even though you're sure that whatever it means, we're definitely not fulfilling it. So here's the sources for the phrase:
I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations.
Isaiah 42:6
Isaiah 42:6
And the commentary there:
I called you: To Isaiah He says.
and I formed you: Heb. וְאֶצָּרְ. When I formed you (כְּשֶׁיְצַרְתִּי) , this was My thought, that you return My people to My covenant and to enlighten them.
for a light to nations: Every tribe is called a nation by itself, as the matter is stated (Gen. 35:11): “A nation and a congregation of nations.”
and I formed you: Heb. וְאֶצָּרְ. When I formed you (כְּשֶׁיְצַרְתִּי) , this was My thought, that you return My people to My covenant and to enlighten them.
for a light to nations: Every tribe is called a nation by itself, as the matter is stated (Gen. 35:11): “A nation and a congregation of nations.”
So here Isaiah is the one who was created to be a light to the nations. Let's check the next place:
And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.
Isaiah 49:6
And the commentary there:Isaiah 49:6
And He said, “It is too light for you to be, etc.”: In My eyes, it is too small a gift that you (Isaiah) should have this alone, that you be My servant to establish Jacob and to bring back to Me the besieged of Israel, and behold I add more to you (Isaiah), “And I will make you a light for the nations,” to prophesy concerning the downfall of Babylon, which will be a joy for the whole world.
So here the "light to the nations" is still Isaiah. Let's check the last place:
There's no commentary on that website on this verse, but the subject is probably Zion since it's written in the feminine and Zion is the closest subject that's a feminine noun. If you compare it to Isaiah 2:2-4, I think you'll see the similarity there as well. So we know that Isaiah 60, like chapter 2 is a prophecy about what will occur in the Messianic era. We are not yet ne Messianic era.
Those are all the sources for the phrase "a light to the nations". As you can see, in two of those places, it's talking about Isaiah and the last place is talking about a time period that hasn't happened yet.
Figure out what it is you want to complain about and let me know.
Tumah
Veteran Member
What it says in the Christian Bible is of no concern to me. In Jewish sources, such as Maimonides, G-d is completely devoid of attribute. All the emotional adjectives that are applied to G-d in Jewish Scriptures are understood to be just as metaphorical as the limbs that are spoken of in Jewish Scriptures.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying about not being bad or good. I was saying like you, that I think people can be bad or good, but that would have no relevance in a world where G-d loves everyone equally and unconditionally. That's the point I was trying to make.
Well, it's a little more complicated then that, because we were first given a choice and we accepted. But when it came to crunch time, we didn't actually have a choice.
I answered this question in my response when I wrote:
The reason why the specific two million people who stood at Mt. Sinai were chosen, is because of their forefathers (see Deut. 10:15).
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were exceptionally righteous despite all the trials and tribulations G-d put them through, so they merited that their children would receive the Torah.Perhaps you struggle more in your daily life. There's no real way to objectively measure that until we can measure how much of a toll any particular circumstance takes on a subject. But I don't have a problem saying that your life is harder than mine. I am saying that that's irrelevant to what I'm talking about. All these things you struggle with are with are not related to your fulfillment of the 7 Noahide Laws, so they're not a part of your service of G-d, they're a part of your trials or tribulations. They fall under a different category in your life called mental upkeep.
I don't understand how you are relating to my statement. I was explaining that Judaism doesn't claim that only Jews may worship G-d. That's what I meant by "We don't claim exclusive right to worship." Anyone and everyone has the right to choose to worship G-d and Judaism doesn't contest that. What we do claim is that it's only through Judaism or Noahidism that one is worshiping G-d correctly. And that's what I meant when I said that "That only through Noahidism or Judaism can one approach G-d". Only by following the Noahide code or the Jewish code is one correctly worshiping G-d in the way that He instituted according to Judaism.
Neither of these things have anything to do with the Mayans and as I explained before, the reason Jews were chosen to be given the Torah is not in order to exclude Mayans, as in theory any Mayan can convert to Judaism and be bound by it just as much as the rest of us. The difference is that the Mayans as a nation refused to accept the Torah and our ancestors weren't given a choice.
As I read it... it sounded a little more than a "could be" but rather, "this is what I want".