Sola'lor
LDSUJC
As if becoming exalted to control all the universe and have perfect knowledge is a simple thing.
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God is an Exalted Man...
- Thread starter jonny
- Start date
As if becoming exalted to control all the universe and have perfect knowledge is a simple thing.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
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zippythepinhead
Your Tax Dollars At Work
Thank you
Sola'lor
LDSUJC
Thank you
Awww. I missed it.
Kristoffer
Member
Is it like that God have been a kind om man before? Like we are now? Is God for LDS Christians the first of ALL, or first of OUR universe?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It is not official doctrine that God (the Father) was once a man like we are now, but several LDS prophets have said that He was. In order for this to make any sense at all, though, you have to keep in mind that, if this is the case, it would have had to be at a time prior to "the beginning." We know that God was God "in the beginning," and the Bible begins with the creation of our universe. If God had been a man at some point in time, it would have had to be in an entirely different universe as He created this one. He couldn't have lived in it before He created it.
When Gordon B. Hinckley (prior President of the Church, just before Thomas S. Monson) was interviewed by Time Magazine and asked about God once being a man, here's what he said:
I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.
I have long had historical interest in early Judeo-Christian religion. It is very difficult for non-historians to imagine that early Christianity held different theological positions that their own. The LDS claim that they are a version of early Christianity, a restoration of earlier doctrines. If modern Christianity has evolved and changed and adopted new and different doctrines and new theories, then no one should be surprised that the LDS are out of step with the new and modern theories and new doctrines adopted by the various later Christian movements and that they have multiple doctrinal parallels with early judeo-christians worldviews.
The early Judeo-Christian concept of an Anthropomorphic God are good examples, both of the early concepts of what form God took when he visited man and of the LDS return to this early concept.
The predominant early belief described by the early Judeo-Christian, was a God with Anthropomorphic characteristicsFor example, the early worldview was that man was created in the image / form / likeness / similitude / facsimile of God : (though many different words for “image” are used in different translations, the difference is rarely important)
“On the day that God created Man, He made him in the likeness of God.”(Gen. 5:1 – stones heb/eng)
“For in the image of God He made man.” (Gen 9:6) (stones)
Later Christians describe this same story in the context of their belief : “ . Ch 12 God formed Adam with His holy hands, in His own Image and Likeness and when the angels saw Adam's glorious appearance they were greatly moved by the beauty thereof. For they saw Fol. 5a, col. 2 the image of his face burning with glorious splendor like the orb of the sun, and the light of his eyes was like the light of the sun, and the image of his body was like unto the sparkling of crystal.” Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”
It is important to note that Adam was glorified in his initial immortal form before his fall as this fact will be used in the later discussion as of whether GOD was also Glorified in early Christian descriptions. (i.e. a Glorified Adam was made in the image of a Glorified God).
Jesus is also described as being “the image of God” (2 Cor 4:4) and “being in the form of God“(Phil 2:6) We are told that the resurrected savior (“ Who is the image of the unseen God “ col 1:15) will “change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body..”(phil 3:21) Heb. 1:3 reminds us Jesus is “ the express image of his [Gods] person.” though Jesus looked like other men, (which themselves “are made after the similitude of God” (jas 3:9)
Rabbis Ibn Ezra; and the great rabbi Ramban confirm their belief that Adam, being created in God’s image of God indicated “that God gave Adam, who himself was created in God’s likeness, the capacity to reproduce offspring who were also in this noble likeness” (stone’s chumash/rabbinic writings, p 25). Thus such imminent rabbis not only describe the anthropomorphism of “likeness” but that man was given other characteristics that are like God’s characteristics and it is clear that these offspring have the capacity to be in the same “likeness” as their parents as well.
Though the multiple anthropomorphisms are unmistakable, such anthropomorphisms could only be nullified by attempts to allegorize them in later religious theory.
Still, the current point is that early Judeo-christians themselves believed God had anthropomorphic characteristics. Texts such as the Haggadah (which is related to the Talmud) makes clear that “likeness” in the case of adam relates to an appearance. In this Haggadic text, the angels mistake the Glorified and immortal Adam for the Glorified Lord God since their appearance was so similar. “When Adam opened his eyes the first time, and beheld the world about him, he broke into praise of God, “How great are your works, O Lord!” But his admiration for the world surrounding him did not exceed the admiration all creatures conceived for Adam. They took him to be their creator, and they all came to offer his adoration. But he spoke : “Why do you come to worship me? Nay, you and I together will acknowledge the majesty and the might of him who has created us all. ‘The Lord reigns,’ “ he continued, “‘he is appareled with majesty.’” And not alone the creatures on earth, even the angels thought Adam the lord of all, and they were about to salute him with “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts, “ when God caused sleep to fall upon him, and then the angels knew that he was but a human being. The Haggadah (Woman)
The description of the Glorified Adam, being mistake by the angels for God for God, (after whose likeness God made him) should completely dispel attempts re-cast the early Judeo-Christians descriptions of Adams creation in the “LIKENESS” of God to be metaphorical. Whether they were correct or incorrect, when they said “likeness”, they means “likeness”.
Thus, there is no need (in describing early Judeo-Christian doctrine), to allegorize all early descriptions of God’s anthropomorphic (human-like) characteristics. For examples, when Jacob says “I have seen God face to face” (gen 32:30) or when Moses claims that the “Lord spake unto Moses face to face (Ex. 33:11). The prophet Ezra (and the later Judeo-christian text) confirms their belief that “ Moses wept for forty days and spoke with God mouth to mouth,... The Questions of Ezra (Recension A) vs 39;
There is no need to allegorize Enochs instruction that “…the face of the lord is not to be talked about, it is so very marvelous and supremely awesome and supremely frightening.... “ or when “the Lord, with his own mouth, said to me, “Be brave Enoch! Don’t be frightened!” Stand up, and stand in front of my face…” or the Lords promise Rev. 22:4 “they shall see his face “ (rev 22:4) or when he chooses to be partly invisible (αορου) “thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen (Ex 33:23) “ With him will I speak mouth to mouth“ (Num 12:8)
In the early descriptions where “…10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet...” Ex. 24:10, it is not merely the fact that he had feet that is anthropomorphic (human-like) but descriptions of actions such as when the prophet Enoch describes The God of the Universe “march[ing] upon Mount Sinai” or creating adam “with his own two hands … in a facsimile of his own face” and when Gabriel sets the prophet Enoch down “in front of the face of the lord (2nd enoch) or when enoch tells us “even I saw the face of the Lord.
The number and type of anthropomorphisms add up AND they form a consistent theme in early, middle and later periods of Judeo-christianity. Whether it is 10 commandments being “…written with the finger of God” in old testament jewish literature (ex 31:18) or “..see[ing] his face “ of new testament literature (rev 22:4) or “…the original man, formed by the holy hands of God,…” (in relatively unsacred descriptive texts (Sibylline Oracles book 8 vs 259-262) or the earliest doctrine asking “ …Who made Adam, the protoplast, the first one?” And God said, “My immaculate hands..." The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 2:1, 10-17, the fact that these many descriptions are anthropomorphic means that the texts include anthropomorphic descriptions and as these descriptions continue into the early post a.d. Judeo-christian periods, it is clear that these Christians believed their God had anthropomorphic (human-like) characteristics.
The early Judeo-Christian texts do not merely speak of Anthropomorphic (human-like) appearance of God, but other anthropomorphic manifestations as well
He “acts” like men in a material manner so that there is a special sense to his being in their early descriptions of him. That is, there is a left and right, a front and behind, he comes and goes, etc. In this way, he is often anthropomorphic (human like) in his actions. This does not say that he has to act this way, but that he often does act this way. For examples :
The “Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing” (Gen 18:22) Stephen, in Acts 7:56 sees “the Son of man standing on the right hand of God”Gabriel sets the prophet Enoch down “in front of the face of the lord (2nd enoch)
God tells the prophet of enoch to” Stand up, and stand in front of my face…”
Not only do they describe a God who is specially oriented, but one who has certain actions that are anthropomorphic. For example, the early Judeo-christians describe God as speaking with a mouth having a voice in a language men could understand. These are all quite anthropomorphic (human-like) actions.
Sedrach says “ I want to speak to God face to face...” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 2:3-5) “…And he finished talking with him and the LORD ascended from Abraham.” Jubilees 15:18-21
“… the Lord turned and said to Adam, ‘From now on I will not allow you to be in Paradise. “Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 28:1-4;
“You will find that God and his angels were their friends while they were in their bodies, and that God kept on speaking to them many times… 8 And our father Jacob would speak to his son Joseph and say to him, “My God appeared to me in the land of Canaan at Luz and blessed me Testament of Jacob 7:1-8
It’s not just that they described him speaking, but he did so quite like men do. Enoch tell us : “All this the Lord said to me, as a man talks to his neighbor.” (2nd Enoch 36:3)In Matt. 3:17 they describe “ a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son”. The voice seemed to speak in a language the men knew, just like when “a man talks to his neighbor”.Matt. 17:5 describes “a voice out of the cloud” which again, speaks a language they understand just like one human would do with another. It is an anthropomorphic (human-like) act.
Regarding God’s Glorification
Katzpur in post #20 : “You know, I just love it when people who disagree with this believe throw in the qualifier "simply" or "merely" or "just" before the words "exalted man."
Just as is imbedded in Katzpurs sarcastic observation, I also have noticed that it is difficult to meet the ancient Judeo-Christian beliefs (or any modern restorationist version such as the LDS have) “head on”. It is almost an impossible urge individuals have, to change the context of LDS doctrine to have some “straw man” content, and then attack that dyscontexted description. Non-historians, always seem to do this to the earliest Judeo-Christian doctrines from early Judeo-Christian descriptions of what they believed. I honestly have never found a modern base salvational theory that has any advantage, any logical or reasonable superiority over the early and most authentic Judeo-Christian doctrines which the early Christians describe in their own texts and in their own words. Modern interpretations and theories simply do not have any advantage to early Judeo-Christian doctrines.
The early context of a GLORIFIED Anthropomorphic God.
Though Adam also, in his Glorified and immortal body may have possessed “flesh and bones”, I think the simple description of “flesh and bones” without constructing the necessary context of wonderful and indescribable and profound glorification, will not be conceived of correctly as it was by the early judeo-christians as it relates to either resurrected beings with glorified bodies or to Adam or to God.
If one is going to discuss LDS doctrines, they should be sufficiently described to understand the early Judeo-Christian context (which the LDS claim to be a version of). If this is not done, the discussion is often simply another exercise in dyscontexting of LDS/Early Christian worldviews and has little historical/Polemic/Apologetic value.
Did the early Judao-Christians believe that God the Father had hands and a face and a mouth and walked and talked and moved about with a body? Yes. But that body was, in their texts, always a glorified body. Flesh? Yes. But it did not seem to be a flesh like that which we experience and conceive of when we say “flesh”.
For examples, when the prophet Enoch describes The God of the Universe “march[ing] upon Mount Sinai” or creating adam “with his own two hands … in a facsimile of his own face” and when Gabriel sets the prophet Enoch down “in front of the face of the lord (2nd enoch) or when enoch tells us “even I saw the face of the Lord. Though the Prophet Enoch is talking about a God who IS marching upon legs, who HAS two hands to form Adam and has a FACE to model Adams face after. Still, these are all relative terms since Enoch is speaking of a Glorified being.
These are all quite anthropomorphic and obvious and not mystical or symbolic descriptions, yet they are in the context of a Glorified Body. “But the face of the lord is not to be talked about, it is so very marvelous and supremely awesome and supremely frightening....
When the Lord tells Enoch to “Be brave”, he says that “the Lord, with his own mouth, said to me, “Be brave Enoch! Don’t be frightened!” Stand up, and stand in front of my face…” 2nd enoch, these are not symbolic, but they come from a glorified being. Anthropomorphic in the extreme to be sure, but still, glorified.
The Perfect Man - other textual witnesses
The early Judeo-Christian ascension literature provides multiple witnesses to their early beliefs. For example, when the Prophet Enoch describes first seeing God the Father, he says : “At that place, I saw the One who precedes time. And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual whose face was like that of a human being.” 1st Enoch 46:1-6; The angel with Enoch goes on to explain that the pre-mortal savior was the one who was with the Father. It is clear in such descriptions that this God was quite anthropomorphic, even in his manners of sitting on his throne and interactions with others : “In those days, I saw him – the Antecedent of Time, while he was sitting upon the throne of his glory, and the books of the living ones were open before him. And all his power in heaven above and his escorts stood before him.” 1st Enoch V1 P 35 47:3;
This concept of an anthropomorphic God was not only represented by such terms as “Father”, or in descriptions of looking like and moving like and communicating like man, but such that multiple early texts referred to God as “the perfect Man.”.
For example, the apostle John in the Secret book of John (Sophia) says : “Now I have come to reveal to you that which is, that which has been, and that which will be, so that you may know the things which are seen and the things not seen and to reveal to you about the perfect Man. Now lift up your face and come and hear and learn what I shall tell you today, so that you yourself may reveal it to spirits of the same sort, who are of the unwavering race of the Perfect Man and are able to understand.”
And, in the chapter on the birth of Adam and Eve, this early text says :
“To him the holy, perfect Father, the First Man in the Form of a man.” This is said in the context of the creation of Adam.
The text says “ they said to one another, ‘Let us make a man, after the image and after the appearance of God’...They created it after the image which they had seen, by way of an imitation of him who was from the beginning the Perfect Man.”
Thus, this same type of language is woven into multiple early Judeo-Christian texts. For example, the gospel of Phillip says : “The heavenly man has many more sons than the earthly man. If the sons of Adam are many, although they die, how much more the sons of the perfect man, they who do not die but are always begotten.....Those who are begotten by him cry out from that place to the perfect man, because they are nourished on the promise concerning the heavenly place.”
and :
"Compare the perfect man. It is through powers which are submissive that he ploughs, preparing for everything to come into being. For it is because of this that the whole place stands, whether the good or the evil, the right and the left. The Holy spirit shepherd everyone and rules all the powers, the “tame” ones and the “wild” ones, as well as those who are unique.”
The Parthian Hymns (cycles) speak of “… the day when he will reveal his form, the beneficent Father, the Lord of the Aeons of Light. He will show his radiant shape and brilliant, glorious form to all the Gods who shall dwell there. Canto VI
Another of the Hymns describes their early tradition, saying : “… I beheld the Savior as he shone before me. I beheld the sight of all the helmsmen, who had descended with him to array my soul.....To me he says, Come, spirit! Fear not..... And forever shall I show you the noble Father, the First man: and I shall lead you in, into his presence, in pure raiment. The Ship of God VI
Jewish Haggadah describes the angels, initially mistaking Adam for his Father (since their appearance was so similar) “When Adam opened his eyes the first time, and beheld the world about him, he broke into praise of God, “How great are your works, O Lord!” But his admiration for the world surrounding him did not exceed the admiration all creatures conceived for Adam. They took him to be their creator, and they all came to offer his adoration. But he spoke : “Why do you come to worship me? Nay, you and I together will acknowledge the majesty and the might of him who has created us all. ‘The Lord reigns,’ “ he continued, “‘he is appareled with majesty.’” And not alone the creatures on earth, even the angels thought Adam the lord of all, and they were about to salute him with “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts, “ when God caused sleep to fall upon him, and then the angels knew that he was but a human being. The Haggadah (Woman)
These angels had SEEN God and knew him previously, but were confused because of Adams appearance.
It was obvious that in early Judeo-Christian tradition, that Adam was created in the image of God. The early Judeo-Christians were not ashamed to have an anthropomorphic God (not at this time in history…)
The second century martyr Vibia Perpetua, a convert to Christianity also describes the Christian tradition of her age when she describes her dream-revelation of God :
: Ch XII “And we came near to a place whose walls were built like as it might be of light, and before the gate of that place were four angels standing, who as we entered clothed us in white robes. And we entered, and heard a sound as of one voice saying: ‘Holy, holy, holy,’ without ceasing. And we saw sitting in the same place one like unto a man white-haired, having hair as white as snow…” The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity;
Whether these early Judeo-Christians were correct in their beliefs or not, still, it is obvious that they believed in and interacted with an Anthropomorphic God. I do not see in any text where God explains WHY he chose an anthropomorphic appearance, nor do I suppose that he HAD to have that shape (i.e. he presumably could have chosen a different material shape...), but simply that he DID choose an anthropomorphic appearance in these early textual witnesses.
Clear
Clear
εισισισεω
The early Judeo-Christian concept of an Anthropomorphic God are good examples, both of the early concepts of what form God took when he visited man and of the LDS return to this early concept.
The predominant early belief described by the early Judeo-Christian, was a God with Anthropomorphic characteristicsFor example, the early worldview was that man was created in the image / form / likeness / similitude / facsimile of God : (though many different words for “image” are used in different translations, the difference is rarely important)
“On the day that God created Man, He made him in the likeness of God.”(Gen. 5:1 – stones heb/eng)
“For in the image of God He made man.” (Gen 9:6) (stones)
Later Christians describe this same story in the context of their belief : “ . Ch 12 God formed Adam with His holy hands, in His own Image and Likeness and when the angels saw Adam's glorious appearance they were greatly moved by the beauty thereof. For they saw Fol. 5a, col. 2 the image of his face burning with glorious splendor like the orb of the sun, and the light of his eyes was like the light of the sun, and the image of his body was like unto the sparkling of crystal.” Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”
It is important to note that Adam was glorified in his initial immortal form before his fall as this fact will be used in the later discussion as of whether GOD was also Glorified in early Christian descriptions. (i.e. a Glorified Adam was made in the image of a Glorified God).
Jesus is also described as being “the image of God” (2 Cor 4:4) and “being in the form of God“(Phil 2:6) We are told that the resurrected savior (“ Who is the image of the unseen God “ col 1:15) will “change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body..”(phil 3:21) Heb. 1:3 reminds us Jesus is “ the express image of his [Gods] person.” though Jesus looked like other men, (which themselves “are made after the similitude of God” (jas 3:9)
Rabbis Ibn Ezra; and the great rabbi Ramban confirm their belief that Adam, being created in God’s image of God indicated “that God gave Adam, who himself was created in God’s likeness, the capacity to reproduce offspring who were also in this noble likeness” (stone’s chumash/rabbinic writings, p 25). Thus such imminent rabbis not only describe the anthropomorphism of “likeness” but that man was given other characteristics that are like God’s characteristics and it is clear that these offspring have the capacity to be in the same “likeness” as their parents as well.
Though the multiple anthropomorphisms are unmistakable, such anthropomorphisms could only be nullified by attempts to allegorize them in later religious theory.
Still, the current point is that early Judeo-christians themselves believed God had anthropomorphic characteristics. Texts such as the Haggadah (which is related to the Talmud) makes clear that “likeness” in the case of adam relates to an appearance. In this Haggadic text, the angels mistake the Glorified and immortal Adam for the Glorified Lord God since their appearance was so similar. “When Adam opened his eyes the first time, and beheld the world about him, he broke into praise of God, “How great are your works, O Lord!” But his admiration for the world surrounding him did not exceed the admiration all creatures conceived for Adam. They took him to be their creator, and they all came to offer his adoration. But he spoke : “Why do you come to worship me? Nay, you and I together will acknowledge the majesty and the might of him who has created us all. ‘The Lord reigns,’ “ he continued, “‘he is appareled with majesty.’” And not alone the creatures on earth, even the angels thought Adam the lord of all, and they were about to salute him with “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts, “ when God caused sleep to fall upon him, and then the angels knew that he was but a human being. The Haggadah (Woman)
The description of the Glorified Adam, being mistake by the angels for God for God, (after whose likeness God made him) should completely dispel attempts re-cast the early Judeo-Christians descriptions of Adams creation in the “LIKENESS” of God to be metaphorical. Whether they were correct or incorrect, when they said “likeness”, they means “likeness”.
Thus, there is no need (in describing early Judeo-Christian doctrine), to allegorize all early descriptions of God’s anthropomorphic (human-like) characteristics. For examples, when Jacob says “I have seen God face to face” (gen 32:30) or when Moses claims that the “Lord spake unto Moses face to face (Ex. 33:11). The prophet Ezra (and the later Judeo-christian text) confirms their belief that “ Moses wept for forty days and spoke with God mouth to mouth,... The Questions of Ezra (Recension A) vs 39;
There is no need to allegorize Enochs instruction that “…the face of the lord is not to be talked about, it is so very marvelous and supremely awesome and supremely frightening.... “ or when “the Lord, with his own mouth, said to me, “Be brave Enoch! Don’t be frightened!” Stand up, and stand in front of my face…” or the Lords promise Rev. 22:4 “they shall see his face “ (rev 22:4) or when he chooses to be partly invisible (αορου) “thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen (Ex 33:23) “ With him will I speak mouth to mouth“ (Num 12:8)
In the early descriptions where “…10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet...” Ex. 24:10, it is not merely the fact that he had feet that is anthropomorphic (human-like) but descriptions of actions such as when the prophet Enoch describes The God of the Universe “march[ing] upon Mount Sinai” or creating adam “with his own two hands … in a facsimile of his own face” and when Gabriel sets the prophet Enoch down “in front of the face of the lord (2nd enoch) or when enoch tells us “even I saw the face of the Lord.
The number and type of anthropomorphisms add up AND they form a consistent theme in early, middle and later periods of Judeo-christianity. Whether it is 10 commandments being “…written with the finger of God” in old testament jewish literature (ex 31:18) or “..see[ing] his face “ of new testament literature (rev 22:4) or “…the original man, formed by the holy hands of God,…” (in relatively unsacred descriptive texts (Sibylline Oracles book 8 vs 259-262) or the earliest doctrine asking “ …Who made Adam, the protoplast, the first one?” And God said, “My immaculate hands..." The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 2:1, 10-17, the fact that these many descriptions are anthropomorphic means that the texts include anthropomorphic descriptions and as these descriptions continue into the early post a.d. Judeo-christian periods, it is clear that these Christians believed their God had anthropomorphic (human-like) characteristics.
The early Judeo-Christian texts do not merely speak of Anthropomorphic (human-like) appearance of God, but other anthropomorphic manifestations as well
He “acts” like men in a material manner so that there is a special sense to his being in their early descriptions of him. That is, there is a left and right, a front and behind, he comes and goes, etc. In this way, he is often anthropomorphic (human like) in his actions. This does not say that he has to act this way, but that he often does act this way. For examples :
The “Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing” (Gen 18:22) Stephen, in Acts 7:56 sees “the Son of man standing on the right hand of God”Gabriel sets the prophet Enoch down “in front of the face of the lord (2nd enoch)
God tells the prophet of enoch to” Stand up, and stand in front of my face…”
Not only do they describe a God who is specially oriented, but one who has certain actions that are anthropomorphic. For example, the early Judeo-christians describe God as speaking with a mouth having a voice in a language men could understand. These are all quite anthropomorphic (human-like) actions.
Sedrach says “ I want to speak to God face to face...” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 2:3-5) “…And he finished talking with him and the LORD ascended from Abraham.” Jubilees 15:18-21
“… the Lord turned and said to Adam, ‘From now on I will not allow you to be in Paradise. “Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 28:1-4;
“You will find that God and his angels were their friends while they were in their bodies, and that God kept on speaking to them many times… 8 And our father Jacob would speak to his son Joseph and say to him, “My God appeared to me in the land of Canaan at Luz and blessed me Testament of Jacob 7:1-8
It’s not just that they described him speaking, but he did so quite like men do. Enoch tell us : “All this the Lord said to me, as a man talks to his neighbor.” (2nd Enoch 36:3)In Matt. 3:17 they describe “ a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son”. The voice seemed to speak in a language the men knew, just like when “a man talks to his neighbor”.Matt. 17:5 describes “a voice out of the cloud” which again, speaks a language they understand just like one human would do with another. It is an anthropomorphic (human-like) act.
Regarding God’s Glorification
Katzpur in post #20 : “You know, I just love it when people who disagree with this believe throw in the qualifier "simply" or "merely" or "just" before the words "exalted man."
Just as is imbedded in Katzpurs sarcastic observation, I also have noticed that it is difficult to meet the ancient Judeo-Christian beliefs (or any modern restorationist version such as the LDS have) “head on”. It is almost an impossible urge individuals have, to change the context of LDS doctrine to have some “straw man” content, and then attack that dyscontexted description. Non-historians, always seem to do this to the earliest Judeo-Christian doctrines from early Judeo-Christian descriptions of what they believed. I honestly have never found a modern base salvational theory that has any advantage, any logical or reasonable superiority over the early and most authentic Judeo-Christian doctrines which the early Christians describe in their own texts and in their own words. Modern interpretations and theories simply do not have any advantage to early Judeo-Christian doctrines.
The early context of a GLORIFIED Anthropomorphic God.
Though Adam also, in his Glorified and immortal body may have possessed “flesh and bones”, I think the simple description of “flesh and bones” without constructing the necessary context of wonderful and indescribable and profound glorification, will not be conceived of correctly as it was by the early judeo-christians as it relates to either resurrected beings with glorified bodies or to Adam or to God.
If one is going to discuss LDS doctrines, they should be sufficiently described to understand the early Judeo-Christian context (which the LDS claim to be a version of). If this is not done, the discussion is often simply another exercise in dyscontexting of LDS/Early Christian worldviews and has little historical/Polemic/Apologetic value.
Did the early Judao-Christians believe that God the Father had hands and a face and a mouth and walked and talked and moved about with a body? Yes. But that body was, in their texts, always a glorified body. Flesh? Yes. But it did not seem to be a flesh like that which we experience and conceive of when we say “flesh”.
For examples, when the prophet Enoch describes The God of the Universe “march[ing] upon Mount Sinai” or creating adam “with his own two hands … in a facsimile of his own face” and when Gabriel sets the prophet Enoch down “in front of the face of the lord (2nd enoch) or when enoch tells us “even I saw the face of the Lord. Though the Prophet Enoch is talking about a God who IS marching upon legs, who HAS two hands to form Adam and has a FACE to model Adams face after. Still, these are all relative terms since Enoch is speaking of a Glorified being.
These are all quite anthropomorphic and obvious and not mystical or symbolic descriptions, yet they are in the context of a Glorified Body. “But the face of the lord is not to be talked about, it is so very marvelous and supremely awesome and supremely frightening....
When the Lord tells Enoch to “Be brave”, he says that “the Lord, with his own mouth, said to me, “Be brave Enoch! Don’t be frightened!” Stand up, and stand in front of my face…” 2nd enoch, these are not symbolic, but they come from a glorified being. Anthropomorphic in the extreme to be sure, but still, glorified.
The Perfect Man - other textual witnesses
The early Judeo-Christian ascension literature provides multiple witnesses to their early beliefs. For example, when the Prophet Enoch describes first seeing God the Father, he says : “At that place, I saw the One who precedes time. And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual whose face was like that of a human being.” 1st Enoch 46:1-6; The angel with Enoch goes on to explain that the pre-mortal savior was the one who was with the Father. It is clear in such descriptions that this God was quite anthropomorphic, even in his manners of sitting on his throne and interactions with others : “In those days, I saw him – the Antecedent of Time, while he was sitting upon the throne of his glory, and the books of the living ones were open before him. And all his power in heaven above and his escorts stood before him.” 1st Enoch V1 P 35 47:3;
This concept of an anthropomorphic God was not only represented by such terms as “Father”, or in descriptions of looking like and moving like and communicating like man, but such that multiple early texts referred to God as “the perfect Man.”.
For example, the apostle John in the Secret book of John (Sophia) says : “Now I have come to reveal to you that which is, that which has been, and that which will be, so that you may know the things which are seen and the things not seen and to reveal to you about the perfect Man. Now lift up your face and come and hear and learn what I shall tell you today, so that you yourself may reveal it to spirits of the same sort, who are of the unwavering race of the Perfect Man and are able to understand.”
And, in the chapter on the birth of Adam and Eve, this early text says :
“To him the holy, perfect Father, the First Man in the Form of a man.” This is said in the context of the creation of Adam.
The text says “ they said to one another, ‘Let us make a man, after the image and after the appearance of God’...They created it after the image which they had seen, by way of an imitation of him who was from the beginning the Perfect Man.”
Thus, this same type of language is woven into multiple early Judeo-Christian texts. For example, the gospel of Phillip says : “The heavenly man has many more sons than the earthly man. If the sons of Adam are many, although they die, how much more the sons of the perfect man, they who do not die but are always begotten.....Those who are begotten by him cry out from that place to the perfect man, because they are nourished on the promise concerning the heavenly place.”
and :
"Compare the perfect man. It is through powers which are submissive that he ploughs, preparing for everything to come into being. For it is because of this that the whole place stands, whether the good or the evil, the right and the left. The Holy spirit shepherd everyone and rules all the powers, the “tame” ones and the “wild” ones, as well as those who are unique.”
The Parthian Hymns (cycles) speak of “… the day when he will reveal his form, the beneficent Father, the Lord of the Aeons of Light. He will show his radiant shape and brilliant, glorious form to all the Gods who shall dwell there. Canto VI
Another of the Hymns describes their early tradition, saying : “… I beheld the Savior as he shone before me. I beheld the sight of all the helmsmen, who had descended with him to array my soul.....To me he says, Come, spirit! Fear not..... And forever shall I show you the noble Father, the First man: and I shall lead you in, into his presence, in pure raiment. The Ship of God VI
Jewish Haggadah describes the angels, initially mistaking Adam for his Father (since their appearance was so similar) “When Adam opened his eyes the first time, and beheld the world about him, he broke into praise of God, “How great are your works, O Lord!” But his admiration for the world surrounding him did not exceed the admiration all creatures conceived for Adam. They took him to be their creator, and they all came to offer his adoration. But he spoke : “Why do you come to worship me? Nay, you and I together will acknowledge the majesty and the might of him who has created us all. ‘The Lord reigns,’ “ he continued, “‘he is appareled with majesty.’” And not alone the creatures on earth, even the angels thought Adam the lord of all, and they were about to salute him with “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts, “ when God caused sleep to fall upon him, and then the angels knew that he was but a human being. The Haggadah (Woman)
These angels had SEEN God and knew him previously, but were confused because of Adams appearance.
It was obvious that in early Judeo-Christian tradition, that Adam was created in the image of God. The early Judeo-Christians were not ashamed to have an anthropomorphic God (not at this time in history…)
The second century martyr Vibia Perpetua, a convert to Christianity also describes the Christian tradition of her age when she describes her dream-revelation of God :
: Ch XII “And we came near to a place whose walls were built like as it might be of light, and before the gate of that place were four angels standing, who as we entered clothed us in white robes. And we entered, and heard a sound as of one voice saying: ‘Holy, holy, holy,’ without ceasing. And we saw sitting in the same place one like unto a man white-haired, having hair as white as snow…” The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity;
Whether these early Judeo-Christians were correct in their beliefs or not, still, it is obvious that they believed in and interacted with an Anthropomorphic God. I do not see in any text where God explains WHY he chose an anthropomorphic appearance, nor do I suppose that he HAD to have that shape (i.e. he presumably could have chosen a different material shape...), but simply that he DID choose an anthropomorphic appearance in these early textual witnesses.
Clear
Clear
εισισισεω
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