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God is disproven by science? Really?

How can you tell a Christian from a non-Christian when they both succumb to the same temptation? Are you claiming that Christians cannot be tempted and sin?
We were talking about being born again, receiving His Spirit, He comes from God to live inside of believers. Not sure where you got your claiming about temptation.
You seem to be claiming powers for yourself to see into the hearts of people. How can I know that you have that power and aren't just pulling my leg?
I don’t have the power to see inside someone’s heart or know their motives unless the Holy Spirit tells me or I’m given a word of knowledge. What I can do is test the spirits and discern where people are by what they say and do.
The Holy Spirit is not divided and He is the teacher of the Scriptures. He won’t go against the Word of God. So if someone teaches something that contradicts Scripture then they aren’t speaking from the Spirit of God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Do you think the human design by God that includes children being born with genes that cause cancers indicates high or low intelligence?

.... and who broke God's very good design but Satan and Adam.
Adam and Eve were offered everlasting life on Earth free of sickness.
Suffering/sickness entered our world because as 1 John 5:19 says the whole world lies in the power of Satan.
Sinner Satan the ' god ' of this world of badness - 2 Corinthians 4:4
So, No, IQ to me has nothing to do with cancer causes.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
.... and who broke God's very good design but Satan and Adam.
Just as they were designed to do.

If God designed Satan and Adam, and God is perfect, why did these two act in a way God didn't want? Either God screwed up, is inept, or God created them to act they way they did.

Adam and Eve were offered everlasting life on Earth free of sickness.
Yeah, awesome deal, right? Perfect beings would realize this is great, let's fool the rules. Since they were perfect, they would be wise and know to obey God.

But they didn't. How do perfect beings make unwise decisions? They must have been designed with a fault that made them be easily tempted. And if God really, really wanted them to obey and be happy, why did God send the serpent to tempt them?

God knew exactly what he was doing. He designed A&E with faults. God gave them rules he knew they were not capable of obeying. He made them easily tempted and sent the serpent to do that exact thing. It was all a set up.

Suffering/sickness entered our world because as 1 John 5:19 says the whole world lies in the power of Satan.
Sinner Satan the ' god ' of this world of badness - 2 Corinthians 4:4
So, No, IQ to me has nothing to do with cancer causes.
Of course these are myths and not even Jews believe it's literally true.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Does anything get built without someone building it? We copy our Creator, even you give praise to God without knowing it.

I can agree we can copy our Creator in that we like to create things.
However, when man sets off a bomb there is No organization.
Whereas, the Big Bang (explosion) is all about organization in contrast with other explosions.

P.S. Watch parts or monkeys in a room full of typewriters is dealing with inanimate objects and not organic matter.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I can agree we can copy our Creator in that we like to create things.
However, when man sets off a bomb there is No organization.
Whereas, the Big Bang (explosion) is all about organization in contrast with other explosions.
It was more of a sudden expansion than an explosion, but that is a minor issue. Within 2 seconds the four forces became active, and these forces acted on the two base elements of hydrogen and helium. Over time these forces acted on the elements to form clouds and eventually these clouds were so dense that gravity began to force elements together. This is how all the other elements came about, all by natural causes.

P.S. Watch parts or monkeys in a room full of typewriters is dealing with inanimate objects and not organic matter.
Good thing these are only bad arguments made by religious folks who have contempt for science.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Just as they were designed to do.
If God designed Satan and Adam, and God is perfect, why did these two act in a way God didn't want? Either God screwed up, is inept, or God created them to act they way they did.
Yeah, awesome deal, right? Perfect beings would realize this is great, let's fool the rules. Since they were perfect, they would be wise and know to obey God.
But they didn't. How do perfect beings make unwise decisions? They must have been designed with a fault that made them be easily tempted. And if God really, really wanted them to obey and be happy, why did God send the serpent to tempt them?
God knew exactly what he was doing. He designed A&E with faults. God gave them rules he knew they were not capable of obeying. He made them easily tempted and sent the serpent to do that exact thing. It was all a set up.
Of course these are myths and not even Jews believe it's literally true.

Perfectly created with the gift of free-will choices.
Satan and Adam were Not created to be un-thinking robots or automatons.
Each person is drawn out by one's own desire - James 1:13-15
Sinner Satan sent himself - John 8:44
Jews are Not Christians.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Perfectly created with the gift of free-will choices.
Perfect means you don't make mistakes, like falling for a ruse. Perfect means you are wise. Yes, they had free will meaning they could chose poorly, but as noted, wise people don't make foolish mistakes like A&E did. So they were not designed and created with adequate wisdom and discpline to obey the rules.

Satan and Adam were Not created to be un-thinking robots or automatons.
Having free will doesn't mean being stupid. Why was a Satan even created in the first place if this was a perfect Eden? Something had to tempt A&E. Satan was created for that job.

Each person is drawn out by one's own desire - James 1:13-15
Sinner Satan sent himself - John 8:44
If God didn't want this, how did it end up happening? Either God knows what he is doing, or he doesn't. Which is it?

Jews are Not Christians.
Christians stealing the Jewish Bible and then interpreting it in a way the Jews don't makes Christianity a group that certainly is as unwise and foolish as A&E. Jews see this story as an allegory. It is their book.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
.... and who broke God's very good design but Satan and Adam.
Adam and Eve were offered everlasting life on Earth free of sickness.
Suffering/sickness entered our world because as 1 John 5:19 says the whole world lies in the power of Satan.
Sinner Satan the ' god ' of this world of badness - 2 Corinthians 4:4
So, No, IQ to me has nothing to do with cancer causes.
Seems God isn’t a very good designer as it didn’t take much to break his design. I mean, if God is perfect, why couldn’t he duplicate incorruptible perfection?
 
I can agree we can copy our Creator in that we like to create things.
However, when man sets off a bomb there is No organization.
Whereas, the Big Bang (explosion) is all about organization in contrast with other explosions.

P.S. Watch parts or monkeys in a room full of typewriters is dealing with inanimate objects and not organic matter.
The Big Bang like an explosion wouldn’t be organized.
I don’t have contempt for science, I have contempt for some of the explanations and interpretations.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The Big Bang like an explosion wouldn’t be organized.
I don’t have contempt for science, I have contempt for some of the explanations and interpretations.
The Big Bang was not an explosion. And you do not know what "organized" is when it comes to thermodynamics. The early universe, the whole thing, had a very low entropy. It was far more "organized" than the universe is today.
 
Seems God isn’t a very good designer as it didn’t take much to break his design. I mean, if God is perfect, why couldn’t he duplicate incorruptible perfection?
Seems you aren’t waiting long enough for that to happen. Read the end of Revelation.
 
Christians stealing the Jewish Bible and then interpreting it in a way the Jews don't makes Christianity a group that certainly is as unwise and foolish as A&E. Jews see this story as an allegory. It is their book.
The Early Church were all Jews, if you read their account in Acts 2 and on you”ll see how and when the Gentiles were also saved and given the Holy Spirit. Also they proved Jesus was the Messiah from the OT.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here is a very short video, one of the characters is a lot like you.

Good video, but I was a little disappointed with the ending. At some point, the police need to tell Ken Spam that since nobody was there to witness the accident, nobody knows what happened, any theory of the crime is as valid as any other if nobody witnessed it, we just can't know what happened, and that therefore, nobody can be charged.

The definition of “born again” comes from the Bible, as Jesus defined that. So for you to contradict that definition is fine with me but that’s not being born again according to Jesus and the Bible.

The biblical definition of born again or Christian is irrelevant to me - to my understanding of what born again means or my definition of Christian. The Bible is for you and anybody else that wants to live by it. Sin and demons are for you to believe in. What Jesus said is for you, not non-Christians. Biblical values are for you.

The Big Bang like an explosion wouldn’t be organized.

The Big Bang wasn't organized. The organization we see in nature is the result of the nature of matter - the forces and tendencies such as increasing entropy and heat dissipation. Clusters of galaxies of solar systems are organized by gravity. Stars burn hot and forge elements due to another force, a weak nuclear force. The atomic nuclei are held together by strong binding forces. And molecules do chemistry using electromagnetism, including self-organizing into living matter.

I don’t have contempt for science, I have contempt for some of the explanations and interpretations.

You are indifferent to science except where it contradicts your faith-based belief, where you are dismissive.

who broke God's very good design but Satan and Adam.

That's not a very good design. In fact, unless one's intention is to create a stage for sin to play out, it's a pretty poor design.

Perfectly created with the gift of free-will choices.

That would be an error. Christians praise free will like its a gift. It's the ability to make wrong choices as well as correct ones. A better system would generate good choices only. Pacifists everywhere plead with people to be good and kind. We do everything in our power to get them to conform to standards of kindness and decency. If we could, we'd make them want only the good. But we can't, because that's just not the way humanity is. Humanism deals with this by recognizing that man is a pastiche of newer, older, and ancient inputs from reptilian and lower mammalian brain structures sending man competing desires, some primal fight or flight, some communal, some intellectual. Many spend a lifetime attempting to subdue the urges using higher centers like reason and conscience. This is a necessary shortcoming resulting from unsupervised evolution, but we attempt to rein in these other parts of our free wills. It is not a gift to be of two minds. Better to will only the good.

It's interesting to see believers trying to reconcile that reality of nature with a worldview that includes a tri-omni deity. The first thing is to identify the shortcomings as sin and blame man and demons. Never mind the elephant in the room - that these were created as they were by a deity who allegedly could have done better but didn't. Enter the "gift" of free will and the immediate fall of man. Why is it a gift? Because it's from God.

Satan and Adam were Not created to be un-thinking robots or automatons.

This is part of the attempted reconciliation. God doesn't want unthinking robots, as if this were an adequate explanation for a perfect god creating an imperfect world.

Speaking of which, what will God have in heaven, robots, or souls with free will? If one argues that evil exists because man has free will, then I guess that there's either evil in heaven or "robots" after all. Free will is what led to the story of rebellion in heaven and fallen angels being cast out. It would be a pretty poor choice for God to allow that to happen again if He could prevent it, as any good father would.

This is the problem with vamping on the theology - creating it ad hoc as you go along, with multiple contributors over millennia. You don't avoid these logical inconsistencies. Apologetics is trying to reconcile a universe that appears to have evolved naturalistically and without intelligent guidance with one imagined to have been created by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity, and it can't be done. You've seen the result - the problems it creates for the apologist, the lengths he goes to unconvincingly explain them away, and the reaction that earns.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The Early Church were all Jews, if you read their account in Acts 2 and on you”ll see how and when the Gentiles were also saved and given the Holy Spirit. Also they proved Jesus was the Messiah from the OT.
What!! They did? Where did they do that? Somebody better hurry up and tell the rest of the Jews.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The Big Bang like an explosion wouldn’t be organized.
Yet all this energy had the laws of physics and the four forces that governed its behavior, and this means order.

I don’t have contempt for science, I have contempt for some of the explanations and interpretations.
Of course you have contempt for science. 1. you dismiss and disregard results and conclusions by experts in science without any expertise yourself. 2. you don't even present superior knowledge that supersedes established results in science, 3. you present debunked and flawed creationist beliefs as if they have any explanatory power, which they don't.

Why do you presume yourself capable of dismissing the result of experts in science without any expertise yourself? Be honest.


The Early Church were all Jews, if you read their account in Acts 2 and on you”ll see how and when the Gentiles were also saved and given the Holy Spirit. Also they proved Jesus was the Messiah from the OT.
Let's say they were just for the sake of argument, you believers today are not Jewish. You have taken the Old Testament and interpreted it in ways Jews do not. It is still their book, and they have the authority to offer a more valid meaning to it. That some modern Christians interpret it literally is absurd and contrary to evidence and reason.

Conservative Christians use the OT as a basis for some their most vile prejudices, namely anti-gay attitudes. This is in direct contradiction to what Jesus taught, which makes these Christians anti-Christs.
 
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Yet all this energy had the laws of physics and the four forces that governed its behavior, and this means order.
The laws of physics- they don’t make themselves,
If there is a law there is a law giver. My view is that God makes the laws.
Is it your view that the materials made their own laws?
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
If God didn't want this, how did it end up happening? Either God knows what he is doing, or he doesn't. Which is it?

According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If God has infinite knowledge and wisdom (omniscient) and infinite power (omnipotent), and he is present everywhere simultaneously (omnipresent), then he knew ahead of time that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation with the apple, and they would disobey him. If the Bible is accurate, then it stands to reason that God knew about the fall of mankind, meaning that he planned it and allowed it to happen. He planned for Adam and Eve to disobey him, and he planned to punish the rest of humanity for their disobedience against him. I think we should also take Isaiah 45:7 into account, where God admits that he creates disasters and calamities. If the Bible is true, then I think this verse proves that God is cruel and sadistic.

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
The laws of physics- they don’t make themselves,
Why are you assuming they were made? As science understands the laws they are part of energy/matter.

If there is a law there is a law giver. My view is that God makes the laws.
Is it your view that the materials made their own laws?
You are assuming this due to obsolete religious stories, and obsolete traditional cultural beliefs that get passed on to new generations, not evidence. This is a further indication that you have a preferred religious framework and use it to reject science, thus your contempt for science.

You have the free will to know better, but you do not choose wisely.
 
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