God is nice and is doing his best to eliminate suffering.

[Link]

Hmm, okay. Sounds like a pretty vengeful God to me, though.

Salam

Another component, is that a soul becomes irreformable per my paradigm in the long run. So he created heaven and hell with life and death pressure time, to quickly save us from that path. So he is quick to reckon and tries us by harms as well, but both hands of his mercy and wrath, are for mercy at the end. Hell and threats are an attempt to save our souls from spiraling down with no way to save it. To better explain:


First principle, endless lives or a second chance won't reform a soul


I will do good, mere word

لَعَلِّي أَعْمَلُ صَالِحًا فِيمَا تَرَكْتُ ۚ كَلَّا ۚ إِنَّهَا كَلِمَةٌ هُوَ قَائِلُهَا ۖ وَمِنْ وَرَائِهِمْ بَرْزَخٌ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ | that I may act righteously in what I have left behind.’ ‘By no means! These are mere words that he says.’ And before them is a barrier until the day they will be resurrected. | Al-Muminoon : 100


They are liars now and won't be able to fulfill their pledge

وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذْ وُقِفُوا عَلَى النَّارِ فَقَالُوا يَا لَيْتَنَا نُرَدُّ وَلَا نُكَذِّبَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّنَا وَنَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ | Were you to see when they are brought to a halt by the Fire, whereupon they will say, ‘If only we were sent back [into the world]! Then we will not deny the signs of our Lord, and we will be among the faithful!’ | Al-An'aam : 27


بَلْ بَدَا لَهُمْ مَا كَانُوا يُخْفُونَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۖ وَلَوْ رُدُّوا لَعَادُوا لِمَا نُهُوا عَنْهُ وَإِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ | Indeed, what they used to hide before has now become evident to them. But were they to be sent back they would revert to what they were forbidden, and they are indeed liars. | Al-An'aam : 28

Broke promise once, will break promise again

وَأَنْذِرِ النَّاسَ يَوْمَ يَأْتِيهِمُ الْعَذَابُ فَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا رَبَّنَا أَخِّرْنَا إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ قَرِيبٍ نُجِبْ دَعْوَتَكَ وَنَتَّبِعِ الرُّسُلَ ۗ أَوَلَمْ تَكُونُوا أَقْسَمْتُمْ مِنْ قَبْلُ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ زَوَالٍ | Warn the people of the day when the punishment will overtake them, whereat the wrongdoers will say, ‘Our Lord! Respite us for a short time so that we may respond to Your call and follow the apostles.’ [They will be told,] ‘Did you not swear earlier? There is no possibility of reverse for you, | Ibrahim : 44


There is more about the paradigm of hell in the Quran here: The Quran's framework for hell. | Religious Forums

 

[Goldemar]

God does forgive.
Even if we deserve God's wrath, God forgives those who stray from His path because God is All-Merciful and Ever-Forgiving. If nobody ever strayed from God's path how could God be called merciful and forgiving?

“My God, my God! If none be found to stray from Thy path, how, then, can the ensign of Thy mercy be unfurled, or the banner of Thy bountiful favor be hoisted? And if iniquity be not committed, what is it that can proclaim Thee to be the Concealer of men’s sins, the Ever-Forgiving, the Omniscient, the All-Wise?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 310

Will all go to Heaven eventually in your belief?

 

[Link]

Are you saying that there will be an eternal punishment for those who commit evil in God's Sight?

Depends on the degree of evil. Quran at the end, shows there is a virtue which no sins will harm, and that is if you hold to the light of God and faith in his name, no sins will harm you. Sins destroy the light and faith, but if you fight it out and do not let sins destroy your faith and love of God and instead of cutting of from God's rope, you cut off who you become and kill your shadow self so to speak and reborn to light, there is no harm. This does not mean just claiming you believe or deceiving yourself about believing in God, but truly at the end, sins do not harm a believer, he repents, and they get turned into good deeds, through his sorrow.

However, there is also a sin that no virtues will benefit and its disbelief.

Quran says:

Only who he denies and turns away. That God will punish him with the greatest punishment.

 

[Goldemar]

Salam

Another component, is that a soul becomes irreformable per my paradigm in the long run. So he created heaven and hell with life and death pressure time, to quickly save us from that path. So he is quick to reckon and tries us by harms as well, but both hands of his mercy and wrath, are for mercy at the end. Hell and threats are an attempt to save our souls from spiraling down with no way to save it. To better explain:


First principle, endless lives or a second chance won't reform a soul


I will do good, mere word

لَعَلِّي أَعْمَلُ صَالِحًا فِيمَا تَرَكْتُ ۚ كَلَّا ۚ إِنَّهَا كَلِمَةٌ هُوَ قَائِلُهَا ۖ وَمِنْ وَرَائِهِمْ بَرْزَخٌ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ | that I may act righteously in what I have left behind.’ ‘By no means! These are mere words that he says.’ And before them is a barrier until the day they will be resurrected. | Al-Muminoon : 100


They are liars now and won't be able to fulfill their pledge

وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذْ وُقِفُوا عَلَى النَّارِ فَقَالُوا يَا لَيْتَنَا نُرَدُّ وَلَا نُكَذِّبَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّنَا وَنَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ | Were you to see when they are brought to a halt by the Fire, whereupon they will say, ‘If only we were sent back [into the world]! Then we will not deny the signs of our Lord, and we will be among the faithful!’ | Al-An'aam : 27


بَلْ بَدَا لَهُمْ مَا كَانُوا يُخْفُونَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۖ وَلَوْ رُدُّوا لَعَادُوا لِمَا نُهُوا عَنْهُ وَإِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ | Indeed, what they used to hide before has now become evident to them. But were they to be sent back they would revert to what they were forbidden, and they are indeed liars. | Al-An'aam : 28

Broke promise once, will break promise again

وَأَنْذِرِ النَّاسَ يَوْمَ يَأْتِيهِمُ الْعَذَابُ فَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا رَبَّنَا أَخِّرْنَا إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ قَرِيبٍ نُجِبْ دَعْوَتَكَ وَنَتَّبِعِ الرُّسُلَ ۗ أَوَلَمْ تَكُونُوا أَقْسَمْتُمْ مِنْ قَبْلُ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ زَوَالٍ | Warn the people of the day when the punishment will overtake them, whereat the wrongdoers will say, ‘Our Lord! Respite us for a short time so that we may respond to Your call and follow the apostles.’ [They will be told,] ‘Did you not swear earlier? There is no possibility of reverse for you, | Ibrahim : 44


There is more about the paradigm of hell in the Quran here: The Quran's framework for hell. | Religious Forums

So the Quran says this, but that doesn't make it so. I believe that all souls will eventually over successive lifetimes learn to free themselves from attachment to the things and life of the material world so that they can then return to the Great God in Heaven. Of course, just because I say this doesn't make it so either. But I believe this to be a fairer concept for Divine Judgment.

 

[Goldemar]

Depends on the degree of evil. Quran at the end, shows there is a virtue which no sins will harm, and that is if you hold to the light of God and faith in his name, no sins will harm you. Sins destroy the light and faith, but if you fight it out and do not let sins destroy your faith and love of God and instead of cutting of from God's rope, you cut off who you become and kill your shadow self so to speak and reborn to light, there is no harm. This does not mean just claiming you believe or deceiving yourself about believing in God, but truly at the end, sins do not harm a believer, he repents, and they get turned into good deeds, through his sorrow.

However, there is also a sin that no virtues will benefit and its disbelief.

Quran says:

Only who he denies and turns away. That God will punish him with the greatest punishment.

So for some there is an eternal punishment. I do not believe in such a concept myself.

 

[Link]

So the Quran says this, but that doesn't make it so. I believe that all souls will eventually over successive lifetimes learn to free themselves from attachment to the things and life of the material world so that they can then return to the Great God in Heaven. Of course, just because I say this doesn't make it so either. But I believe this to be a fairer concept for Divine Judgment.

If it was possible, maybe. There is a lot more about why it is not possible. One of the components is how we react if doors of sky/light/higher reality are opened. If we go kicking and screaming, the same reality that makes believers take most pleasure of paradise, is also the same reality that would burn an evil soul most in hell. Although physical punishments exist in hell, don't get me wrong, but they pale to the burning of the light of God and proof against the evil spirits.

That burning is more severe then any physical burning. Yet same reality makes all pleasures of paradise pale in comparison to the proof and light and water flow.

 

[Link]

So for some there is an eternal punishment. I do not believe in such a concept myself.

I've seen people who do not believe in hell layer the argument:

God would want to reform souls, bring them back to similar lives to get it right (reincarnation) or fixes them once they die (heal out of their evil) (what if not possible? If we broke promise to God to reform first time, and not we are in evil state and lying to ourselves, state, how will we do it this time - and repeating infinite times won't get us out of this hole. As for death healing us, how so, if we hate God's light and his proof?)
Wrath and Vengeance is petty (Mostly how humans use it okay. Not always so though, why do we have hate and vengeance if its only for bad?)
There is no good and evil, sin is a construct. (malice, oppressing, apathy, all not sins???)
All path leads to God (God is High in exalted nature and holy pure essence, if you go down and defile your self, how does that lead to God???)
God would not create a soul knowing it would go to hell (this one I agree, but they assume future is known by God when it is not)

So at the end, there are different layers to it.

Not sure if you layer it all the same.

 

[Goldemar]

If it was possible, maybe. There is a lot more about why it is not possible. One of the components is how we react if doors of sky/light/higher reality are opened. If we go kicking and screaming, the same reality that makes believers take most pleasure of paradise, is also the same reality that would burn an evil soul most in hell. Although physical punishments exist in hell, don't get me wrong, but they pale to the burning of the light of God and proof against the evil spirits.

That burning is more severe then any physical burning. Yet same reality makes all pleasures of paradise pale in comparison to the proof and light and water flow.

I'm not sure that really explains why it is not possible.

I believe that a soul/spirit can only return to God's Light/Heaven when they are spiritually ready. Otherwise they will live again in the material world, which is the real Hell.

 

[Link]

I'm not sure that really explains why it is not possible.

I believe that a soul/spirit can only return to God's Light/Heaven when they are spiritually ready. Otherwise they will live again in the material world, which is the real Hell.

This is a good subject.

The thing is negative existence is rebellious against God's light. If God were now in this world to open door to heaven/light to it, it would accuse a person of doing sorcery on it, and convict the light of God of being evil.

The day of judgment type proof is however, with 8 type of signs explained, 8 type of authorities will rule that day relevant to 8 type of signs that exist, and the people are all forced to listen, perceive and the power of God's chosen and Angels will be obvious.

At that point when proof is forced to the soul, it does not have a way to be good, if it wants good will, it can not be given it, it's too late. This is Nuh's (a) words "will we force you (the proof I am on) while you are averse?". He is trying to get them to love the light and ask forgiveness from God.

If forced, a soul can no longer be reformed, its impossible at that point. Miracles are close to that, but per Quran ,when those are shown, often, rebellious souls become more hostile to the light. Not all, but many. But there is room for denial for miracles, irrational, but room for it. They simply accuse "magic" "sorcery", and boom it now requires a long explanation of why its a proof.

 

[Trailblazer]

Will all go to Heaven eventually in your belief?

According to my beliefs, heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God (in our hearts, not geographical distance.) Will everyone eventually be near to God? I don't know, only God knows...

Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

The way I interpret that letter is that if we want the guarantee of heaven we will have to have faith in Baha'u'llah and do good deeds, but even if we don't do both those things we can still be accepted into heaven by God's mercy and bounty.

 

[Goldemar]

I've seen people who do not believe in hell layer the argument:

God would want to reform souls, bring them back to similar lives to get it right (reincarnation) or fixes them once they die (heal out of their evil) (what if not possible? If we broke promise to God to reform first time, and not we are in evil state and lying to ourselves, state, how will we do it this time - and repeating infinite times won't get us out of this hole. As for death healing us, how so, if we hate God's light and his proof?)
Wrath and Vengeance is petty (Mostly how humans use it okay. Not always so though, why do we have hate and vengeance if its only for bad?)
There is no good and evil, sin is a construct. (malice, oppressing, apathy, all not sins???)
All path leads to God (God is High in exalted nature and holy pure essence, if you go down and defile your self, how does that lead to God???)
God would not create a soul knowing it would go to hell (this one I agree, but they assume future is known by God when it is not)

So at the end, there are different layers to it.

Not sure if you layer it all the same.

I believe that the Great God in Heaven created all immortal human souls/spirits but did not create the material world. Another being, the evil Demiurge, created the material world as a prison to trap souls/spirits within (this is the real Hell), and it is for us to learn to set ourselves free from attachment to this world so that we can return to God.

 

[Link]

Also, regarding getting potentially infinite chances to get it right.

If we fail the first time, and the first time we were in a more pure and sincere pledge state to God, and every time we go back to God as liars to ourselves and God and more insincere, no amount of repeating this will fix the soul. Its actually a recipe for it to continue to amount to more evil.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that a soul/spirit can only return to God's Light/Heaven when they are spiritually ready. Otherwise they will live again in the material world, which is the real Hell.

Do you believe in reincarnation?

 

[Link]

I believe that the Great God in Heaven created all immortal human souls/spirits but did not create the material world. Another being, the evil Demiurge, created the material world as a prison to trap souls/spirits within (this is the real Hell), and it is for us to learn to set ourselves free from attachment to this world so that we can return to God.

That requires a thread in itself. How about you state your paradigm in a thread, use the @Link to call me, and I will be there to discuss Gnosticism and your evil Creator of this world scenario.

 

[Goldemar]

This is a good subject.

The thing is negative existence is rebellious against God's light. If God were now in this world to open door to heaven/light to it, it would accuse a person of doing sorcery on it, and convict the light of God of being evil.

The day of judgment type proof is however, with 8 type of signs explained, 8 type of authorities will rule that day relevant to 8 type of signs that exist, and the people are all forced to listen, perceive and the power of God's chosen and Angels will be obvious.

At that point when proof is forced to the soul, it does not have a way to be good, if it wants good will, it can not be given it, it's too late. This is Nuh's (a) words "will we force you (the proof I am on) while you are averse?". He is trying to get them to love the light and ask forgiveness from God.

If forced, a soul can no longer be reformed, its impossible at that point. Miracles are close to that, but per Quran ,when those are shown, often, rebellious souls become more hostile to the light. Not all, but many. But there is room for denial for miracles, irrational, but room for it. They simply accuse "magic" "sorcery", and boom it now requires a long explanation of why its a proof.

What is negative existence?

 

[Link]

What is negative existence?

Darkness not from the point of view of "no light", but negative and opposite to light.

One view is darkness and light is relative, and that all are light levels or darkness levels. This is on view.

To me, they are opposites, although God through his mercy, extends his light and throne upon all things, and the God and Imam are omnipresent and are the light of those stuck in darkness as well.

 

[Goldemar]

Also, regarding getting potentially infinite chances to get it right.

If we fail the first time, and the first time we were in a more pure and sincere pledge state to God, and every time we go back to God as liars to ourselves and God and more insincere, no amount of repeating this will fix the soul. Its actually a recipe for it to continue to amount to more evil.

I believe each soul advances over time spiritually so that it becomes closer to freeing itself from the material world.

 

[Goldemar]

Do you believe in reincarnation?

I do!

 

[Link]

I believe each soul advances over time spiritually so that it becomes closer to freeing itself from the material world.

Is this from viewpoint of reincarnation or from viewpoint of after-life with one death?

Anyways, I've already showed reasons to why I believe both are not possible right now with the world we have now. A soul when proven and forced proof in state of hostility, becomes more rebellious. A soul travelling away from God will not change directions unless tested and passing some trials where it does good and pressured to with death as time pressure, repents, with heaven and hell as reward or punishment.

A soul who broke promise to God while in a pure state making that promise, will not be better fulfill if he breaks it, no matter how many chances. Its a recipe to downward spiral only.

Of course, God could have made sure every soul never rebel or go astray including Iblis, but this what the OP is about. I tried to explain how we would not have much meaning, and that even paradise with any amount of physical pleasures would become stale boring and almost torture as some atheist philosophers put it when arguing against paradise and how no such thing is possible, over time. God if he made sure no room for error, it would reward the evil and punish the good, which does not seem right. In fact, there would be no good or evil at least not in the terms we are use to.

 

[Goldemar]

That requires a thread in itself. How about you state your paradigm in a thread, use the @Link to call me, and I will be there to discuss Gnosticism and your evil Creator of this world scenario.

I'll try do that now (on a train at the moment so intermittent Internet connection).