God is nice and is doing his best to eliminate suffering.

[Link]

I'll try do that now (on a train at the moment so intermittent Internet connection).

Take your time. I have 10 days before school starts again.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do!

I do not believe in reincarnation. Any God who would send us back to this hellhole would not be a Great God.

I believe that after our physical body dies we pass on to the spiritual world where our soul takes on another form, a heavenly form made up of elements of that heavenly realm of existence. Nobody can know what that will be like because it remains a mystery.

I believe that in the spiritual world we will all continue on our journey for all of eternity.

A long article on death and dying is found in the Baha’i Library online. The part about death and dying starts on the middle of page 4.

Death and Dying in the Bahá’í Faith

 

[Goldemar]

I do not believe in reincarnation. Any God who would send us back to this hellhole would not be a Great God.

I believe that after our physical body dies we pass on to the spiritual world where our soul takes on another form, a heavenly form made up of elements of that heavenly realm of existence. Nobody can know what that will be like because it remains a mystery.

I believe that in the spiritual world we will all continue on our journey for all of eternity.

A long article on death and dying is found in the Baha’i Library online. The part about death and dying starts on the middle of page 4.

Death and Dying in the Bahá’í Faith

I don't believe the Great God in Heaven sends us into the material world at all, either the first time or any time thereafter. Rather it is the evil Demiurge who traps each soul in the material world again and again (until a soul has learnt to free itself from attachment to the material world and can thus escape the Demiurge's clutches).

 

[Bird123]

God has no needs we agree. But he is the ultimate gift and only really meaningful gift, he can give, so created us to worship him and for our benefit. If we run away from him, what will we run to? And if we hate God and his light, do we not deserve his wrath?

He created hell and heaven and life and death as a pressure so we can become something high and great.

The life and pleasures in this world are a distraction to test us if we are steadfast to God. That's all. Its simple, use the world to get closer to God, life is but a moment, live it in obedience to God.

Also, Ruling for sake of ruling, is not good. But God rules because he has wisdom to guide humanity and humanity is need of his authority and guidance.

Make the mistake of running away from him, and he will catch you.

Do you need rules in order to value those petty things mankind holds so dear?? Is it the excuse you need to Blame, Judge, Condemn, Punish, Hate, Control, Intimidate, Coerce, Create a We against They, Revenge, Vengeance and Payback?? Is this really all in the name of God??? Look again!! Perhaps, one should ask why one values these petty things. Is controlling others the issue??

God's system works regardless of anyone's choices. If one chooses to ignore responsibility in order to have fun, lessons in responsibility will return. Don't you see? One can choose anything in order to Discover what the Best choices really are.

In a multilevel classroom, one will see others learning lessons one has already learned. Is this really the time to hate and value those petty things mankind holds so dear?? OF COURSE NOT!!!!!!!

As I have said before, this world is created for us. We were never meant to worship, bow down and all the things mankind wants.

Of course, one might experience a bit of Awe when one bumps into God. On the other hand, God is so great to be around. God is free of all those petty things mankind holds so dear. There is no garbage. There is no baggage. God is a Joy to be around. I truly want to be like God and am working at doing that. I plan to copy God and God's High Intelligence as much as I can. Intelligence does make the best choices.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

@Bird123 Why have humans been given feelings of hate, vengeance, and retributive justice if it has no place in virtue? If its all petty, why would be given something totally negative?

 

[Bird123]

@Bird123 Why have humans been given feelings of hate, vengeance, and retributive justice if it has no place in virtue? If its all petty, why would be given something totally negative?

Would not Learning and Discovering all sides have to include all sides in order know what the best choices really are? If knowledge is sheltered from one, Understanding will be lacking. It's a little like free will. If our actions are controlled, one will choose the opposite as soon as one is free to choose just to Discover why one was restricted from making that choice.

This is why God allows total free choice. This is why God will never intimidate or coerce one's choices. One is free to make choices of hate, vengeance and revenge. I merely point to the ultimate results. Like God, I make no demands. Each is free to choose the path they want to Discover.

In a multilevel classroom, one will see others learning lessons one has already learned. For those who must watch, it is merely a reminder of what the true answers really are.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Would not Learning and Discovering all sides have to include all sides in order know what the best choices really are? If knowledge is sheltered from one, Understanding will be lacking. It's a little like free will. If our actions are controlled, one will choose the opposite as soon as one is free to choose just to Discover why one was restricted from making that choice.

This is why God allows total free choice. This is why God will never intimidate or coerce one's choices. One is free to make choices of hate, vengeance and revenge. I merely point to the ultimate results. Like God, I make no demands. Each is free to choose the path they want to Discover.

In a multilevel classroom, one will see others learning lessons one has already learned. For those who must watch, it is merely a reminder of what the true answers really are.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Okay fair enough. The thing is you cannot prove or disprove basic morals, they are properly basic. You can only prove or disprove what emanates from them in a more complex way and what they apply to.

For example, marriage is more complex. You have to analyze certain thing about human behavior, family, etc, to know if it should be a thing. Then you have to see if significant exception happens to that for something like Muta (the other form of "right hands/oath posses which never meant slavery but was twisted in Quran to mean that). In other words, sex and rules guiding it is more complex. Discussion can arise about it.

However, something like "compassion is good towards less fortunate" cannot be proven or disproven. It's properly basic, because it simply is from "compassion is good", which cannot be reduced. Its same with vengeance, justice, and hate towards evil people, it cannot be proven or disproven. Its something we either know or do not know.

So realizing that, I can only show examples and remind of where its good, but if you disagree with a properly basic moral, it's impossible to prove or disprove.

Also hate towards evil people should always be mixed with compassion and want to reform and guide them. But this does not mean hate and vengeance does not have a proper place. But to show the proper place, is all properly basic morals, which cannot be proven or disproven.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I wrote this in another thread, but thought it deserves a topic itself.

My understanding is God is doing his best to eliminate suffering, evil and guide us. The following post elaborates:

Salam

Corruption in land and sea is because of what humans hands has earned.

Suffering by humans to other humans, is not God's punishment or him afflicting it.

He tries us by each other and allows evil ones to cause suffering on earth.

Why doesn't he just get rid of all evil people. He does time and time again, destroy oppressors, and their day is coming.

However, he wishes for evil people to be saved as well.

God loves to forgive more then to punish. He is begging us to ask forgiveness from him. Who does that?

No one asks people who are evil towards them to ask forgiveness so they can forgive them. No one. If the person will ask forgiveness, it won't be by that person reaching out begging them to ask forgiveness so that they could on good terms.

God is nice, but there is limits to being nice. Life is a limited time. Die evil, and consequences are forever. But God is asking us to seek his forgiveness and pray for guidance. He has warned us about the Devils from Jinn because they are unseen parts of our psyche whether we notice or don't.

He wishes to guide us to that he can reward us.

If he can "force" love and make us see his beauty, he would. There is no forcing love, it has to come with freewill. When truth is clear beyond possibility of doubt and there is no way to doubt it at all no matter how much we might try, it's too late to love God, because the matter is decreed now and there is no reward that be given for faith.

The day of judgment people will know truth but at the same time, never be more blind to God and his truth, they will blind to his beauty and further astray in hate of him. Their prayers will always be in error because it can't have love at this point. It will be empty words.

God is trying to save us. What else can he do?

Too many signs have caused nations to perish in the past and the Mahdi (a) coming out when world is not ready can have consequences.

Yet it's upon God to save believers at the moment of peril and distress from their enemies, believers are asking disbelievers for peace and justice, so that the hour doesn't destroy them and world doesn't face the consequences of not being ready.

God never wanted to create this world in the first place. Satan was never meant to disobey God, Adam (a) elite friend of God was truthful so trusted Iblis, but still, why didn't he rely on Ahlulbayt (a) and reach out to them in moments of peril? After that, there was no choice, but to create this world, as he can't try repeat when we all saw consequences, and so had to create a world of trials. But successors of Adam (a) up to Idris (a) were meant to be followed but things went haywire, and Nuh (A) couldn't save them when he was sent. All this was not meant to happen.

A disease we inherited generation to generation after, is that when believers are distressed they call upon God but when saved from enemies and brought to safety, many of them turn on their backs and begin to associate with God being ungrateful. This even happened with children of Israel during Musa (a) lifetime let alone after!

And 313 believers of battle of badr and sincere companions of Mohamad (s) were built by God and his light. They witnessed many things in battle. And the ones who fought Mohammad (s) were thankful for being spared blood and forgiven from the companions as well. It looked good. If most stayed true, as expected they should, things wouldn't have gone bad after Mohammad (s). But they were apathetic and didn't remain resolved and patient, were tired of battles, and didn't come to aid of Ali (a) and Fatima (a) except some of them, which Ali (a) decided to spare their blood and not fight as a result.

God did everything he can, revealed Surah Auli-Imran, begging companions of Mohammad (s) not to turn on their backs. What else can he do.

Fatima (a) reminded them, Ali (a) reminded them, what can be done.

You do not believe that God is omnipotent, then?

 

[Link]

You do not believe that God is omnipotent, then?

Depending on how that is defined, it can be a yes or no.

 

[Bird123]

Okay fair enough. The thing is you cannot prove or disprove basic morals, they are properly basic. You can only prove or disprove what emanates from them in a more complex way and what they apply to.

For example, marriage is more complex. You have to analyze certain thing about human behavior, family, etc, to know if it should be a thing. Then you have to see if significant exception happens to that for something like Muta (the other form of "right hands/oath posses which never meant slavery but was twisted in Quran to mean that). In other words, sex and rules guiding it is more complex. Discussion can arise about it.

However, something like "compassion is good towards less fortunate" cannot be proven or disproven. It's properly basic, because it simply is from "compassion is good", which cannot be reduced. Its same with vengeance, justice, and hate towards evil people, it cannot be proven or disproven. Its something we either know or do not know.

So realizing that, I can only show examples and remind of where its good, but if you disagree with a properly basic moral, it's impossible to prove or disprove.

Also hate towards evil people should always be mixed with compassion and want to reform and guide them. But this does not mean hate and vengeance does not have a proper place. But to show the proper place, is all properly basic morals, which cannot be proven or disproven.

Each will prove for themselves through their choices and also through the parameters and events in their lives.

When someone shows compassion toward you, it feels good. You want to return the same. If someone shows hate and vengeance toward you, how do you feel? What is your knee jerk reaction? Don't you want to give hate back?

Morals are a choice. The scope of morals is chosen by each person based on what they have learned. Is it moral to give those petty things to others like hate. vengeance, judging, condemning, blaming, punishing, anger and wrath?? I say no!! Petty things will never bring the best results.

Is it moral to give others those petty things because their definition of moral does not meet your standards or your holy book standard?? I say no!!

In a multilevel classroom, one will see others learning lessons, including lessons in morals one has already learned. Is this the time to value and send those petty things mankind holds so dear? Will sending hurt to others really bring the best results? Isn't it better to work at solving the real problems, guiding others to that Higher Level??

Religions teach people we are good and they are evil. Isn't everyone lacking some knowledge since no one is capable of creating a Heavenly state for themselves and others?

In a multilevel classroom with different levels of Understanding in different areas of knowledge, we teach each other. We are not meant to Hate each other. Even though religions teach a we against they, it has always been an US in God's eyes.

I point. Now you can choose to ignore what I say about Hate, Vengeance, and all the other petty things mankind holds so dear. I can not see why you value them. Clearly you have yet to Discover what these things really are and the results of hurt and not help they supply others. Worry not. In time, God will return the view that you are missing in order that you Discover what these petty things really are.

Remember, God will never threaten, coerce or intimidate your choices. Neither will I. Each will choose for themselves the journey they wish to take.

God is about what IS. It doesn't matter what one Believes. Life's lessons are always about what actually Is. It stares us all in the face. In time, everyone will reach a Higher Level, even those hated and labeled evil. There is no time limit on Learning and Growing. After all, we do have Eternity.

In time, we will all Discover that the only real viable choice is Unconditional Love and never ever all those petty things mankind holds so dear!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Hate can stem from ignorance or insight of God's light. If someone hates from ignorance and from caprice and racism or nationalism in a ignorant way, it is condemned. But there is a proper way to hate evil ones and condemn their evil out of knowledge and insight that is purely linked to God and his face.

The believers love for God and hate for God. Their love is linked to reality in truth. They disconnect from who disconnects them from God.

Of course, no one wants to be hated. This does not mean hate does not have a proper place. In fact, this is a benefit, we act in a way not to be hated by the virtuous and can command good and forbid evil or be commanded by others and humans can push themselves towards virtue, if they hate for sake of God and love for sake of God. So in fact, not wanting to be hated, is a benefit of hate as a virtue. If we have evil ones hated, it maybe push them towards change. But as I said before, the hate has to be mixed with kindness and compassion.

More importantly, it keeps the good from shifting to evil, the fear of being hated. This way, people love and hate can help facilitate value remains on truth and people act good of it as well. Its a way for us to hold our hands together as society and gravitate towards justice.

 

[Link]

choice is Unconditional Love

Love itself is a value assessor. Its conditioned to love on the amount of value in a person. When a person is in negative value, minus a great amount, the same assessor that makes us love good people will make us hate evil people. Of course, God out of his mercy, conceals people and their faults. But if someone is clearly evil, we would hate them if we know how deeply evil they are. For example, Saddam Hussain.

Love is the feeling when you positively value a person and hence it is full of life and meaning, and we adore the beauty in goodness.

Hate is the feeling when you negatively value a person and hence its full of pain and anti-meaning and we are disgusted at the ugliness in evil.

No one one wants to hate anyone, that is why its virtuous to. It is a painful to hate but we have to distant ourselves from evil and recognize its ugliness.

I think a great division between you and I, is you don't believe such a thing as sin or that there is good and evil.

To me darkness and light cannot be equated. Its not simple mistakes and we are not kids.

 

[Bird123]

Love itself is a value assessor. Its conditioned to love on the amount of value in a person. When a person is in negative value, minus a great amount, the same assessor that makes us love good people will make us hate evil people. Of course, God out of his mercy, conceals people and their faults. But if someone is clearly evil, we would hate them if we know how deeply evil they are. For example, Saddam Hussain.

Love is the feeling when you positively value a person and hence it is full of life and meaning, and we adore the beauty in goodness.

Hate is the feeling when you negatively value a person and hence its full of pain and anti-meaning and we are disgusted at the ugliness in evil.

No one one wants to hate anyone, that is why its virtuous to. It is a painful to hate but we have to distant ourselves from evil and recognize its ugliness.

I think a great division between you and I, is you don't believe such a thing as sin or that there is good and evil.

To me darkness and light cannot be equated. Its not simple mistakes and we are not kids.

We all have the power to Choose what we deem important. Have you chosen to make your love conditional???

Question? Doesn't a child of God deserve to be Loved regardless of that child's choices? When a child chooses evil, isn't it best to work to solve the problem rather than spewing anger and hate? What do you teach those around you through your choices and actions of anger and hate? It certainly isn't goodness or the direction to the best choices.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

We all have the power to Choose what we deem important. Have you chosen to make your love conditional???

Yes I have. I do not equate negative ugly garbage evil souls with positive beautiful treasurable souls.

 

[Bird123]

Yes I have. I do not equate negative ugly garbage evil souls with positive beautiful treasurable souls.

Isn't this just an excuse to Hate? The Higher Level would be to make positive beautiful souls out of the ugly garbage evil souls.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Isn't this just an excuse to Hate? The Higher Level would be to make positive beautiful souls out of the ugly garbage evil souls.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Its not excuse, its a reason for it. It is justification for it. The two are not equal nor should be dealt with the same way by God.

Of course, beautiful souls are trying to reform the evil ones, but this does not mean, beautiful souls love them while they are evil. They out of compassion are trying to save them.

But if they die, then, things become impossible.

 

[Bird123]

Its not excuse, its a reason for it. It is justification for it. The two are not equal nor should be dealt with the same way by God.

Of course, beautiful souls are trying to reform the evil ones, but this does not mean, beautiful souls love them while they are evil. They out of compassion are trying to save them.

But if they die, then, things become impossible.

How can you justify Hating a Child of God regardless of their actions? Have you not Discovered that the price for Hate is always too high?? Do you want to Define yourself as a Hater?? God doesn't Hate. Why do you think it is right for you??

Do you look for the good in others or is your view all based on what you deem as evil?? Do you Condemn others or do you look for the good and nurture that goodness forward to grow and expand??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

How can you justify Hating a Child of God regardless of their actions? Have you not Discovered that the price for Hate is always too high?? Do you want to Define yourself as a Hater?? God doesn't Hate. Why do you think it is right for you??

Who said anything about Hate?

 

[Link]

How can you justify Hating a Child of God regardless of their actions? Have you not Discovered that the price for Hate is always too high?? Do you want to Define yourself as a Hater?? God doesn't Hate. Why do you think it is right for you??

Do you look for the good in others or is your view all based on what you deem as evil?? Do you Condemn others or do you look for the good and nurture that goodness forward to grow and expand??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I love and hate in equal measure. You can call me what you want, but I will not equate the havoc mischief makers on earth with those who set aright, nor the good souls with evil souls.

 

[Muffled]

I guess I'm more concerned with the suffering of innocent children than the status of this wicked person's heart.

I believe there are no innocent children only children with past lives that could have been wicked or at least sinful.