God is not the sole cause of creation

[robo]

For the same reason that Picasso didn't start his Blue Period 5 minutes earlier.

And the reason is .... ?

Next question please.

Sure.

I guess you agree then that Picasso existed in time before his spontaneous creative impulse.

Do you hold that God likewise existed in time before he suddenly all of a sudden decides to create the universe?

The reason why I pose this question is that there are already posters here in this thread who mention that there is no "before" creation.

 

[rusra02]

Greetings all:

Do you believe that God is the sole and only cause of creation?

If yes, why did not creation happen 5 minutes earlier than when it actually did?

In other words, what are the necessary and sufficient conditions needed for creation? If these conditions were always available, why did NOT creation happen at some other time than when it actually did?

Thus, there are multiple causes of creation.

Thoughts?

Yes, God is the sole cause of creation. God created the visible universe when it pleased him to do so. The only cause needed for creation is God purposing to do it.
As Revelation 4:11 states: "You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created."

 

[McBell]

And the reason is .... ?



Sure.

I guess you agree then that Picasso existed in time before his spontaneous creative impulse.

Do you hold that God likewise existed in time before he suddenly all of a sudden decides to create the universe?

The reason why I pose this question is that there are already posters here in this thread who mention that there is no "before" creation.

Let me get this straight...
You are attempting to shove time on a being that people believe exists outside of time?

Good luck with that.

 

[Iti oj]

Greetings all:

Do you believe that God is the sole and only cause of creation?

If yes, why did not creation happen 5 minutes earlier than when it actually did?

In other words, what are the necessary and sufficient conditions needed for creation? If these conditions were always available, why did NOT creation happen at some other time than when it actually did?

Thus, there are multiple causes of creation.

Thoughts?

time didn't exist or have meaning until after creation, your question is illogical.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Well, if this is true, nothing can cause creation, for a cause has to temporally precede the effect. .

No reason to believe that... since the Universe exists... As yet we do not understand creation.

Within your axiomatic framework, may be.
But there could just have been an infinite regress of time.

To reverse time is even more fanciful.

If time began with the creation of the universe, there was no point in time when the universe was not.
Thus, the universe is eternal

poor logic.... (reworded) There is no point in time since the universe existed that it has not existed....
The Univers had a starting point and will have an end point. it is not eternal.

God may or may not have a start and end point, but not in respect of "time" in this universe. There may be a time frame or multiple time frames elsewhere than in the space time of this universe.

 

[Adso]

Are you sure you want to stick with this analogy? Because if you do, it is going to be a defeater for Christianity. Here's why.

Picasso didnt start his Blue Period 100 years before when he actually did because he didnt exist 100 years before when he actually did!

Wow, you're right. Your response to my statement has made me question everything about my belief structure...

Seriously, did you think you could arbitrarily add a nonsensical time frame that wasn't in my original post, and then argue from it? That aside, the entire point of my statement seems to have sailed way over your head, so let me just clarify:

I believe (as well as many other Christians) that God is a transcendent being, existing outside of Time and Space. Time and Space are things He created; why he did it approximately 13.5 billion years ago and not sooner or later than that is anybody's guess. A creative act is a spontaneous thing, just as Picasso beginning his Blue Period when he did, and not at some other time.

You seem to struggle with the concept that God is totally seperate from Time, just as Picasso and his paintings are separate.

 

[thau]

Blessed are those who bring peace, they shall be children of God
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

Is that what heretics preach?

Or just the special Anglican type you assign yourself?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If yes, why did not creation happen 5 minutes earlier than when it actually did?

I don't know, maybe the same reason my last research paper wasn't completed five minutes earlier than when it actually was. Which would be due to the fact, even after all other factors are considered, that I didn't start it five minutes sooner.
If there was a definite beginning, it didn't happen sooner because it didn't. Maybe the proper elements had not lined up properly to cause a "creating" molecular reaction, maybe God is a procrastinator, or maybe the universe was created exactly when it was intended to be.

 

[robo]

Let me get this straight...
You are attempting to shove time on a being that people believe exists outside of time?

What does it mean for something to exist "outside of time"? No one seems to be able to give any meaningful definition of this. Yet they continue to use this random collection of words and expect others to understand what they mean. The same people turn around and then claim that "God is eternal." See post #2 and post #5 for clarification.

 

[robo]

time didn't exist or have meaning until after creation, your question is illogical.

Can anything exist prior to creation?

 

[robo]

poor logic.... (reworded) There is no point in time since the universe existed that it has not existed....
The Univers had a starting point and will have an end point. it is not eternal.

Please define when something is "eternal". My definition is: Something is eternal if there was no point in time when it was non-existent.

Do you agree or disagree with this definition?

If you agree, I challenge you to point out a time when the universe was non-existent.

 

[robo]

I believe (as well as many other Christians) that God is a transcendent being, existing outside of Time and Space. Time and Space are things He created;

Do you agree that a cause has to temporally precede an effect? Are time and space effects?

You seem to struggle with the concept that God is totally seperate from Time, just as Picasso and his paintings are separate.

You are spot on in this. I DO struggle with the concept of a God that is separate from Time. Those who say this then turn around and then say "God is eternal". The two do not compute in my hardware.

Could you please define what it means to say something is eternal and what it means to say something is separate from time or outside of time?

Thanks.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What does it mean for something to exist "outside of time"? No one seems to be able to give any meaningful definition of this. Yet they continue to use this random collection of words and expect others to understand what they mean. The same people turn around and then claim that "God is eternal." See post #2 and post #5 for clarification.

Time and space seem to be the same, to exist outside of time would also be to exist outside of space, which to our best knowledge is everything (if anything) outside of the universe. As for eternal, there is no need to put so much thought into it, least you over think it needlessly. Most people would agree eternity/eternal is time without end. I haven't heard many people state a beginning, but time without end is practically universal in defining forever.

Can anything exist prior to creation?

Obviously something did exist before the universe or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Now if it was only matter that expanded into the universe or some creator is up for an endless debate.

Do you agree that a cause has to temporally precede an effect? Are time and space effects?

The spontaneity of mater has disproven causality. There does not need to be a cause to have an effect.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Please define when something is "eternal". My definition is: Something is eternal if there was no point in time when it was non-existent.

Do you agree or disagree with this definition?

If you agree, I challenge you to point out a time when the universe was non-existent.

Even astro-physicists have to come to terms that there was a "Time" before the universe existed. When in fact time, space and matter started with the creation of the Universe.
One can only suppose that there is a "something" that this and other universes form into.

 

[McBell]

I guess you agree then that Picasso existed in time before his spontaneous creative impulse.

yes.
Like I said, a no brainer out for you.

Do you hold that God likewise existed in time before he suddenly all of a sudden decides to create the universe?

I personally hold no veiw one way or the other.
However, for those who believe god to be outside of time there is no five minutes before or after for god.

Thus you are attempting to stuff god into a box that most do not believe he fits in.

The reason why I pose this question is that there are already posters here in this thread who mention that there is no "before" creation.

And?
All you seem to be trying to do is force a belief that there was a before creation on them.

 

[9Westy9]

Greetings all:

Do you believe that God is the sole and only cause of creation?

If yes, why did not creation happen 5 minutes earlier than when it actually did?

In other words, what are the necessary and sufficient conditions needed for creation? If these conditions were always available, why did NOT creation happen at some other time than when it actually did?

Thus, there are multiple causes of creation.

Thoughts?

My thought is that you're not going to get a very good answer either way