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God is simple, not complex

Pudding

Well-Known Member
Dawkins' tacit argument (which many atheists are apparently parroting, because I hear it all the time) is basically this: Theologians do not understand the principle of parsimony because they are attempting to put forth a complex entity (God) as the ultimate explanation. (Atheists apparently do not realize that the principle of parsimony is first and foremost a philosophical and theological principle.)
Dawkins and many atheists think that Theologians do not understand the principle of parsimony?
Dawkins and many atheists think that Theologians are attempting to put forth a complex entity (God) as the ultimate explanation?

Tacit argument?
Please link their original speech which tacitly point to this tacit argument.
And explain your finding and understanding of this tacit argument according and in comparison to their original speech, point by point.

I do not understand how your post relevant to my post which you have quote, need your explaining.

You only have response regards to one sentence of my whole post, what about the other 95% of my post?
 

Reflex

Active Member
Please elaborate your opinion according to my respective post in a relation to the op's post, point by point or directly regards to my post, for better understanding.
Your current method for conversation is unclear, I have no idea what things you wish to discuss with me.
Please use the quote function for better clarity.
Accept or reject....I don't care. The inability to grasp something as simple and basic as "God is without parts" or "God is being itself" baffles me.
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
Accept or reject....I don't care. The inability to grasp something as simple and basic as "God is without parts" or "God is being itself" baffles me.
I cannot converse with someone who i can't communicate with.
Please communicate with me in a way i can understand, otherwise it's meaningless for you to keep argue with me for things i've no idea what you wish to argue about.
 

Reflex

Active Member
I cannot converse with someone who i can't communicate with.
It works both ways, and like I said, I'm baffled. It seems to me you want the One to be reduced to an idea you can wrap your head around, but that has never been the case except for immature religions. Mind can only wrap it's mind around a god that is "out there," but God is the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere. Think for yourself on what that means.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I cannot converse with someone who i can't communicate with.
Please communicate with me in a way i can understand, otherwise it's meaningless for you to keep argue with me for things i've no idea what you wish to argue about.
Hey pudding,

Perhaps I can help: the op is referring to ontological parsimony. This means the op is suggesting that a simple god theory is dependent on the least entities to account for something (existence in this case). In this statement there are several assertions but ultimately it says that any other theory is either not possible or necessitates more entities than a singular entity without parts.
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
It works both ways, and like I said, I'm baffled. It seems to me you want the One to be reduced to an idea you can wrap your head around, but that has never been the case except for immature religions. Mind can only wrap it's mind around a god that is "out there," but God is the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere. Think for yourself on what that means.
I cannot understand what you wants to discuss with me since you reject to response properly with stating which part of my post you're responding to.
I've already repeteadly stating this but you still keeps going to responds to me vaguely.
Please stop this behaviour already, or else i'll consider you trolling and ignore you.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
It works both ways, and like I said, I'm baffled. It seems to me you want the One to be reduced to an idea you can wrap your head around, but that has never been the case except for immature religions. Mind can only wrap it's mind around a god that is "out there," but God is the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere. Think for yourself on what that means.
So, as promised, I have continued to read this thread and your posts, and will your sources. I hope you continue to post here. I am confused at some of your responses. That some find logical problems in your reasoning is not suggestive of their ignorance nor willful blindness. Rather, people will challenge your, or your quoted reasoning. If they are in error, point out how so. That some find a simple entity is not indicative that they must be some moron putzing about the dark.

Would you agree that a concept of a simple god requires a framework wherein properties are not abstract concepts to which objects belong but instead as constituents and are more akin to tropes which inhere objects?

This is not intuitive to people who have been socialized to think of properties as abstract principles separate from the entity. I.e. if power is a property and powerful things have this property in some degree, they are not likely to just dismiss the cognitive dissonance that comes from trying to assimilate the perspective into an existing framework which it cannot fit. The idea that god does not have properties but is those properties and that all of those properties are equal is a very complex theory that, given our current socialization, requires, if nothing else, massive shifting of many accepted notions. That some are not like hey, this makes perfect sense, should not be surprising.

Asserting divine simplicity will require a person to address much. I imagine why you enjoy the topic so much is because of the cognitive stimulation it entails. If, however, you think the concept is intuitive or easily grasped in this age, you do not understand much of what the concept entails.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
This is to correct a common misunderstanding that many atheists seem to have, namely, the mistaken belief that God is complex. God is simple, not complex. That's why God is the most parsimonious explanation for the mystery of existence - for why there is something rather than nothing.

God is simple. Which entails His mind, being a part of Him, must be simple, too.
Ergo, He is simple minded.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
Hey pudding,

Perhaps I can help: the op is referring to ontological parsimony. This means the op is suggesting that a simple god theory is dependent on the least entities to account for something (existence in this case). In this statement there are several assertions but ultimately it says that any other theory is either not possible or necessitates more entities than a singular entity without parts.
What part of statements of my post you're responding to?
Your explanation is for what?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
That category error. Atheists cling to their immature conceptions of God the way toddlers cling to a security blanket.

In my view all conceptions of God are immature. Too many theists cling to their belief like a security blanket, it comforts them and is a way of avoiding difficult questions.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
We're talking about your metaphysical naturalism and your proposal to dispense with causality. By dispensing with causality, you're dispensing with any causal explanation.
I did not propose that. Rather, I enquired, in order to be certain that I understood you, whether the arguments against cause and effect also constitute a natural arguement against contingency, as you understand it. Do they?

If you are equating cause and effect with contingency, I may withdraw from the conversation as our ideas are too diverse to for me to be helpful.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
I did not propose that. Rather, I enquired, in order to be certain that I understood you, whether the arguments against cause and effect also constitute a natural arguement against contingency, as you understand it. Do they?

If you are equating cause and effect with contingency, I may withdraw from the conversation as our ideas are too diverse to for me to be helpful.
Umm...did he make an argument against causality?
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
I did not propose that. Rather, I enquired, in order to be certain that I understood you, whether the arguments against cause and effect also constitute a natural arguement against contingency, as you understand it. Do they?

No. Something contingent is dependent upon something else for its existence. (Anything that comes in and out existence is contingent.)
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
No. Something contingent is dependent upon something else for its existence. (Anything that comes in and out existence is contingent.)
Dependency is a different concept than birth. A child is still dependent even after its birth.
 
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