God - Is this knowledge the ultimate aim?

[PureX]

Say what? The mindset of the artist creating the work is not relevant??? The mindset is shown in the work.

I wrote; "... if it's not presented to us by the artwork." I guess you just didn't see this part of the sentence.

For one to appreciate art one must attempt to get into the mind of the artist. Who did not produce the work for you to decide what was meant but rather, what the artist wanted to say.

Artists often aren't trying to "say" anything. They are trying to share their experience of being, within a specific context, with the rest of us. They do that through the subjects they choose to address, and how they choose to address them. And then we have to "read" their choices, as recorded by their artworks, through intuition, our own experience, reason, imagination, empathy, and so on.

A Van Gogh painting is not a 'depiction' of haystacks in a field. It is the (re)presentation of how Van Gogh experienced those haystacks in the field. How he experienced the light, and the breeze, and the sounds, and the 'energy' of that specific moment in time and place. And he conveys that experience to us through his arrangement of forms on the picture plane, and his choice and use of colors, and his application of brush-strokes, and even his context within the history of painting. Art isn't 'depiction'. It's simultaneous interpretation and representation.

There are people on this forum who believe they have seen god, what makes you think artists are different than other human beings?

People believe all sorts of things. But believing things doesn't make them true, or even possible. I can believe I've seen God, or not, but I can't know that what I believe happened, is what happened. Because we humans fool ourselves all the time, and have no way of detecting our own foolishness with certitude. Most artists understand this better than most non-artists do because they deal with the unique way they experience reality as part of their life's work. And they have to use the 'language' of universal experience to convey that uniqueness to others, successfully.

 

[PureX]

Why settle for knowledge of God, when you can achieve unity with God?

Taoists would take that a little further and assert that there is no way for a human to obtain 'knowledge of God' (tao), but that we can nevertheless achieve alignment with the Expressed Divine.

 

[Politesse]

Taoists would take that a little further and assert that there is no way for a human to obtain 'knowledge of God' (tao), but that we can nevertheless achieve alignment with the Expressed Divine.

I like Taoists! I don't know that most Taoists would choose to translate Tao as the knowledge of God though!

 

[ChristineM]

I wrote; "... if it's not presented to us by the artwork." I guess you just didn't see this part of the sentence.
Artists often aren't trying to "say" anything. They are trying to share their experience of being, within a specific context, with the rest of us. They do that through the subjects they choose to address, and how they choose to address them. And then we have to "read" their choices, as recorded by their artworks, through intuition, our own experience, reason, imagination, empathy, and so on.

A Van Gogh painting is not a 'depiction' of haystacks in a field. It is the (re)presentation of how Van Gogh experienced those haystacks in the field. How he experienced the light, and the breeze, and the sounds, and the 'energy' of that specific moment in time and place. And he conveys that experience to us through his arrangement of forms on the picture plane, and his choice and use of colors, and his application of brush-strokes, and even his context within the history of painting. Art isn't 'depiction'. It's simultaneous interpretation and representation.
People believe all sorts of things. But believing things doesn't make them true, or even possible. I can believe I've seen God, or not, but I can't know that what I believe happened, is what happened. Because we humans fool ourselves all the time, and have no way of detecting our own foolishness with certitude. Most artists understand this better than most non-artists do because they deal with the unique way they experience reality as part of their life's work. And they have to use the 'language' of universal experience to convey that uniqueness to others, successfully.

You really have no idea of what art it have you? You have learned to be technical about it but just dont get the feeling do you?

"Their experience" not yours, thank you

Your Van Gogh statement completely disses your earlier statement "The mindset of the artist is irrelevant" but i doubt you will actually understand that.

They believe, that is the point, your opinion on anothers belief is precisely that, opinion.

 

[Frankie85]

Throughout history mans Faith in God has been well documented. It is apparent that the a belief in God/s, in many various practices can not and will not be eliminated from the mind of man.

How then do we then reconcile what is Faith and what is Science when we determine 'Truth'.

If God is the creator, then science is actually looking for this cause, all the while rejecting what they look for.

If there is no God, then this accident of creation must be easy to explain sometime soon.

View attachment 26999

So are we all in this life, really just looking for what is God?

I actually disproved God once, yes, I was helping these syrian refugees in Greece for 8 months and since they came from a war helping them was extremely demanding, so what I did I was in the church sometimes praying to get a little help but i never got it, but the most important thing here and my point is that I truly felt it in my heart to get help with them, yes like truly and deeply in my heart that I should have gotten some help with them, so during this time I disproved God simply by not getting help when needed, don`t get me wrong, I know many people pray and things, but this was a honest and deeply feeling in my heart that I should have gotten help wih them

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Cro magnon did leave records in cave paintings, some as old as 30,000 years. No god depicted.

I see that supports what was offered about records being lost. A few cave paintings does not tell us what they did, or did not know about God and what they may have practiced in Faith. The creation stories of Australian Aboriginal people go back this far as well.

Humanity also goes through stages of growth. At one time humanity was as a child with child like comprehension. Humanity has now reached the stage where we are just emerging from adolescence. As we know, adolescent years are turmoil as we find what it is to be an adult.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The statement assumes that science is looking for a cause to god and that people are rejecting it. It just means its leaning one way (rejection) without taking into account science may not have to do with looking for a cause at all.

A lot of people, and I do mean people, do see science as a threat to god.

The statement I see is a 'What If' for some and known Truth for others.

If creation is of God, then that is all science can find. From a Faith perspective there is a known barrier where we have no access to. We can not know the Esence of God, only the attributes.

Also from a Faith perspective, there has been given in this age a detailed explanation as to how existence did come into being. Once humanity finds unity, my guess is this table will greatly aid science in understanding the structure for the source of life.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Our part? Not mine, nor many others, sorry.

Yes that is entirely our choice, which some of us are free to make.

It would be good to find our unity, so all have the chance of free choice. When that happens, we will be amazed at the progress we can make as a species.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

With these plural pronouns, who is it that you presume to speak for? I am hoping that you are speaking only for the Baha'i, or that you have a mouse in your pocket.

In the case that you are speaking for all humanity or all worldly beings, I do not presume to speak on your behalf, so please return the favor and do not speak on mine.

I see humanity will not find its peace and security unless and until its unity is firmly established.

Science and Faith can not prosper until we find unity and our collective mind works together.

Thus I practice this unity by seeing that I am part of the whole, we as a whole now have to implement that unity.

It starts with each of us, how else could it happen?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No person on this website does not know the grand purpose of life regardless whether they believe or do not believe. No human can know the real purpose of their existence even those that believed. I quote here, the Qur’an again which specifically states that “all things are appointed a specific time” which means all things have a fixed time of their existence.

As a person that deals with emergent issues I’ve been a witness to newborns dying to toddlers. What was their purpose if their lives were cut so short? What was the purpose of Adopf Hitler who had a hand in the murder of millions of people? I think as we live life we continuously write and rewrite what our individual purpose is through our actions in this world. I believe individually we define what we think we are here for but on a grand level none of us know, much less believe we seek to understand or know God.

Wheras I think it is possible to know a lot about this subject.

It may just be a matter of where we choose to look for the answers. Which brings back God into the mix.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I reject the concept of ultimate aim with regards to life.

That is our choice.

I personally see great bounty in having an aim and that aim includes a lifetime of hard work focused on the Love of all. Life becomes its own reward.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I actually disproved God once, yes, I was helping these syrian refugees in Greece for 8 months and since they came from a war helping them was extremely demanding, so what I did I was in the church sometimes praying to get a little help but i never got it, but the most important thing here and my point is that I truly felt it in my heart to get help with them, yes like truly and deeply in my heart that I should have gotten some help with them, so during this time I disproved God simply by not getting help when needed, don`t get me wrong, I know many people pray and things, but this was a honest and deeply feeling in my heart that I should have gotten help wih them

I see all things happen in life for a reason and with some things there is no quick fix.

Our disunity has made these situations grow and fester, humanity is now very sick.

Well done for helping, the world needs many helpers. I see the key is not to give up, as all prayers are answered, we just sometimes do not see the answer.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

I see that supports what was offered about records being lost. A few cave paintings does not tell us what they did, or did not know about God and what they may have practiced in Faith. The creation stories of Australian Aboriginal people go back this far as well.

Humanity also goes through stages of growth. At one time humanity was as a child with child like comprehension. Humanity has now reached the stage where we are just emerging from adolescence. As we know, adolescent years are turmoil as we find what it is to be an adult.

Regards Tony

A few? Right, i have been researching them as a hobby for 10 years and havent made a dent in whats out there. I examined over 900 last year

Glad you said creation "stories"

Actually in terms of brain size humanity had gone backwards from cro magon times. So your last paragraph seems to be opinion and is ignored

 

[QuestioningMind]

Throughout history mans Faith in God has been well documented. It is apparent that the a belief in God/s, in many various practices can not and will not be eliminated from the mind of man.

How then do we then reconcile what is Faith and what is Science when we determine 'Truth'.

If God is the creator, then science is actually looking for this cause, all the while rejecting what they look for.

If there is no God, then this accident of creation must be easy to explain sometime soon.

View attachment 26999

So are we all in this life, really just looking for what is God?[/QUOTE

If God is the creator, then science is actually looking for this cause, all the while rejecting what they look for.

That's not true. Science isn't rejecting anything. Science has simply failed to detect any verifiable evidence for this creator God.

If there is no God, then this accident of creation must be easy to explain sometime soon.

What do you base that claim on? Why, if there is no God, MUST the accident of creation be something that will soon be easily explained?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I was going to leave a snarky remark to the effect that God didn't choose to reveal himself until around 6000 years ago, but in doing some digging, I found that there may have been a sculpture of a deity around 38,000 years ago.

"The Aurignacian[9] Löwenmensch figurine, the oldest known zoomorphic (animal-shaped) sculpture in the world and one of the oldest known sculptures in general, was made. The sculpture has also been interpreted as anthropomorphic, giving human characteristics to an animal, although it may have represented a deity.[10]"

The rest of the article is pretty interesting as well.

Timeline of religion - Wikipedia

It supports the view that faith in God is progressive, that as we evolve as a species, our mind is able to grasp greater concepts.

What is Truth, does not change, our ability to understand the structure we are born to, does.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A few? Right, i have been researching them as a hobby for 10 years and havent made a dent in whats out there. I examined over 900 last year

Glad you said creation "stories"

Actually in terms of brain size humanity had gone backwards from cro magon times. So your last paragraph seems to be opinion and is ignored

Size does not indicate potential of capacity. Look at what can be produced from splitting an atom.

Sorry must go, will get back to all this tonight.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

When that happens, we will be amazed at the progress we can make as a species.

We? I'm already amazed at the progress. You aren't?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We? I'm already amazed at the progress. You aren't?

There are many great things unfolding, that I see supports a great future. At the same time I see too much effort aimed at making war and I see this is holding back our potential.

I see the mind of man needs to be seeking its unity.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I see the mind of man needs to be seeking its unity.

Regards Tony

I see man benefiting from a true tolerance of differences. But I could be wrong. As long as some folks stand against atheists, homosexuals, or anyone different from them, it's likely problems will occur.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see man benefiting from a true tolerance of differences. But I could be wrong. As long as some folks stand against atheists, homosexuals, or anyone different from them, it's likely problems will occur.

I know no Baha'i that stands against any persons choices.

I can conclude if you choose to be a Baha'i you will not then be an Athiest and in any other case, would have accepted, or would be willing to explore the wisdom offered in the Laws of the Faith.

This also leads back to the 'what if' posted in the OP.

Regards Tony