god is watching....hmmmm.

[Bismillah]

The development of good and bad starts with physiology

And it ends with pursuing an action not for the sake of reward or fear of punishment but because it is right.

I believe the basis of all human development is contingent upon the discipline of our physiological sensations

That might a foundational base that evenually gives way to our developing sense of morality.

I believe children learn to love and forgive through the condition that their needs are met through the parental figure which thus creates a bond based on that.

True, a child grows to love the mother for her affection and it is this affection between a mother and her offspring that could be considered innate love. A child recognizes and reciprocates this love.

Eventually this idea of loving mother develops into higher complex forms of bonding

Agreed there are a few base emotions such as love that pave the path for later human interactions and relations.

 

[waitasec]

Where did I say that?

right here..

I can formulate a basic sense of morality on my own, it is the knowledge of divine justice for all actions that will always motivate me to act in the best manner possible.

Because I believe every action will be requited? Clearly, I have already explained that I do something for "the sake of good".

no...you said it is the KNOWLEDGE of divine justice is what motivates you.

why do you have a problem with that?

 

[Bismillah]

right here..

I value "integrity and self-respect" because it is the "right thing to do". Get it yet?

you said it is the KNOWLEDGE of divine justice is what motivates you.

The presence of divine justice is based on the premise of the existence of Allah. The existence of Allah then necessitates that mankind value "integrity" and "self-respect".

 

[waitasec]

I value "integrity and self-respect" because it is the "right thing to do". Get it yet?

nice back pedaling...
where have you ever mentioned these things? never. you said the motivating factor for your good deeds is because you are being watched.
i'll remind you

I can formulate a basic sense of morality on my own, it is the knowledge of divine justice for all actions that will always motivate me to act in the best manner possible.

funny some people don't adhere to that line of thinking and are moral anyway...don't you think that's rather interesting?

The existence of Allah then necessitates that mankind value "integrity" and "self-respect".

that is not true for whole a lot of people. because there are atheists who do value these things, don't they?
there in lies you predicament, quandary and your dilemma.
:yes:

 

[Kilgore Trout]

i was going for my daily hike today and i over heard these bicyclists saying, "i saw a sign that says, 'no bicycling' but it's ok, no one is watching". i chuckled to myself thinking that i've heard this as an argument for god in that, if we didn't know he was watching us we would run amuck...

so does that mean for the believer, if they didn't adhere to god rules, would they live life without any sense of morality...? (i don't think that is true by any means btw) how then is that reconciled with the fact of atheists who do have a sense of morality...where does that come from? does it not come from the same place everyone gets it from... common sense and decency?

I'm just glad that we have religious morality for those that need it. I realize not everyone can be moral for its own sake, so it's good that we have religion to help keep all those people in line, who without religion, would apparently be stealing, murdering, and coveting their neighbor's ***.

 

[Badran]

In my opinion, we usually don't do things just for one reason, there are a whole variety of reasons that affect our choices. Some of them are selfish reasons, some of them are not. The existence of selfish of reasons on its own is not a bad thing.

For example, when i help someone, aside from wanting to help him for his sake, i also feel better about myself as a human, which usually makes me happy. I feel happy for him, which in itself also serves me as obvious, as i'm happier regardless. Then there are the reasons related to consequences, obviously we all get affected by that in one way or another, which also in itself is not a bad thing.

Finally, for me there is another motive, which is pleasing what i perceive as my creator, fulfill his expectations (which is also partially self serving i guess, but not entirely). To make it clear though its not just for reward or to avoid punishment from that god, but for the sake of pleasing him in itself as well. Its difficult to separate all these motives, and trace which is the main motivator for you most of the time and in each situation.

So basically, this last part is just a different set of motives which people who believe in that kind of god have.

 

[waitasec]

I'm just glad that we have religious morality for those that need it. I realize not everyone can be moral for its own sake, so it's good that we have religion to help keep all those people in line, who without religion, would apparently be stealing, murdering, and coveting their neighbor's ***.

absolutely....

i watched "collision" a documentary with christopher hitchens and an evangelical christian (his name escapes me). at the end hitchens says something very interesting. he mentioned a conversation that he had with dawkins, it was about if they could convert the last believer would they....hitchens said he wasn't so sure if he would. and i believe it's for the very same reason you just mentioned....some people have to be 'forced', as it were, to be decent human beings.

 

[Bismillah]

where have you ever mentioned these things? never. you said the motivating factor for your good deeds is because you are being watched.

Stop manipulating my words, what I said was

I can formulate a basic sense of morality on my own, it is the knowledge of divine justice for all actions that will always motivate me to act in the best manner possible.

I've mentioned this multiple times in the same exact debate in the other thread.

I value "integrity and self-respect" because it is the "right thing to do". Get it yet?

Get it yet?

that is not true for whole a lot of people.

You accept the premise of "divine justice" that then logically

The existence of Allah then necessitates that mankind value "integrity" and "self-respect".

there in lies you predicament, quandary and your dilemma.

 

[waitasec]

Stop manipulating my words, what I said was

stop insinuating i was dishonest...i quoted you for petes sake

I can formulate a basic sense of morality on my own, it is the knowledge of divine justice for all actions that will always motivate me to act in the best manner possible.

thats pretty loud and clear to me...what motivates you is believing you are being watched...why do you have a problem with that...your words implicated you not i friend.


btw you NEVER answered the question, makes me think you are dodging it
what does integrity and self respect mean to you?

 

[Vendetta]

(Where's the popcorn)

 

[waitasec]

(Where's the popcorn)

sorry v, i think the show is over...

 

[youfaith]

Some recommend living life as if someone is always watching you.

 

[waitasec]

This argument is invalid. I know God is watching yet I still do stuff He would disapprove of. I am shameless.

no. your honest...

 

[waitasec]

Some recommend living life as if someone is always watching you.

i'm watching myself...that's good enough for me...

 

[Vendetta]

i'm watching myself...that's good enough for me...

Sounds kinda of like masturbation

 

[waitasec]

Sounds kinda of like masturbation

if i can't trust myself, who can i trust?

 

[Vendetta]

if i can't trust myself, who can i trust?

Trust in Jeebus

 

[NemisisQ]

i was going for my daily hike today and i over heard these bicyclists saying, "i saw a sign that says, 'no bicycling' but it's ok, no one is watching". i chuckled to myself thinking that i've heard this as an argument for god in that, if we didn't know he was watching us we would run amuck...

so does that mean for the believer, if they didn't adhere to god rules, would they live life without any sense of morality...? (i don't think that is true by any means btw) how then is that reconciled with the fact of atheists who do have a sense of morality...where does that come from? does it not come from the same place everyone gets it from... common sense and decency?

Well, morals can be a substitute for god. It's how many murderers, rebels, and teenagers run by. so yeah, lol, chaos would be upon us if a certain moral is not gathered by people

 

[waitasec]

Well, morals can be a substitute for god. It's how many murderers, rebels, and teenagers run by. so yeah, lol, chaos would be upon us if a certain moral is not gathered by people

curious, where do our morals come from, in your opinion?

 

[lilmama1991]

knowing that we're being watch it can sometimes make it hard but if we just pray and at least try our best to stop doing or dont do the things we know are wrong in gods hands he will give us a chance. we arent perfect so we're going to sin but trying is what god cares about