God = Morality?

[an anarchist]

Does God have to be moral? There seems to be the presupposition that morality stems from God in some religious circles.
Well, do you believe it does?
Is the god of your faith a moral agent? Is it immoral not to follow your god?
Is it possible for a creator god to be immoral?
Can and does morality exist in absence of a god, or is god a necessary part of the equation?
When one is moral while holding disbelief in God, do you believe that their morality still comes from god?

 

[Polymath257]

I find it to be deeply immoral to offload my moral thinking on another being.

So, even if a God exists and is very moral, I would *still* think that such would not be the *source* of morality. And, indeed, the moral conclusions of that deity may well differ from mine and I might regard that deity as being evil at times.

 

[ChristineM]

Can and does morality exist in absence of a god,

Morality is a human (and many other animals, particularly social animals) trait. Without it there would have been no civilisation to create gods to steal morality to use as a weapon against those who don't believe a particular god.

When one is moral while holding disbelief in God, do you believe that their morality still comes from god?

See above

 

[74x12]

Is it possible for a creator god to be immoral?

Not if he fits all the criteria as described in the Bible. If God literally knows everything and literally controls everything; then he can't really be immoral. He would dictate reality itself including morality.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Does God have to be moral? There seems to be the presupposition that morality stems from God in some religious circles.
Well, do you believe it does?

If God (at least the Christian one) is moral, then it must be moral to kill anyone (and their sons, and rape their virgin daughters) to take over land that you want for yourself. (This is what Joshua, under God's command, did to the Canaanites.)

So, no, I do not think God is moral (or at least the God described in the Bible). I know, I KNOW, it is wrong to kill somebody else and their children just because I want their stuff. I KNOW it is wrong to rape girls who have no interest in actually being raped by me. So at least in this case, I know better than God does.

But let me also say, moving to the New Testament, that the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira, for not handing over all the proceeds of the sale of their own property to the Apostles, was completely immoral. Their property was their property, and they voluntarily gave up much -- but not all -- of it, for which their God is apparently responsible for having them drop dead on the spot.

Definitely immoral. Worse, definitely evil. No other description fits.

Is the god of your faith a moral agent? Is it immoral not to follow your god?
Is it possible for a creator god to be immoral?
Can and does morality exist in absence of a god, or is god a necessary part of the equation?
When one is moral while holding disbelief in God, do you believe that their morality still comes from god?

Because of what I wrote about, I am as certain as I can be that there is no such thing as the God that has been described to me throughout my life. Therefore, my own morality is on me, I am accountable, I am guilty when I fail.

 

[IThoughtAboutIt]

This is not my belief but teachings from well established Abrahamic religions that I’m familiar as well as supported in biblical writings. God is good. PERIOD! I.e. A thing is good because God says it is good. A man is righteous because he obeys the commandments of God. Good is objective, not subjective. And it is whatever God says it is. And yet most 12-year-old, even Christians, would tell you that many of the things God does and commands us to do are immoral.

EXAMPLES

if you told a child that someone was going to do what you wanted them to, but you hardened their heart so that they changed their mind, for no other reason then you can beat them up and glorify yourself and look big in front of the everybody else, the child would say that was evil. And yet that is what God did to Pharaoh. And it was good, by definition.

if you told a child that someone commanded an army to go down to the valley and put every man woman and child to the sword so that none remain alive, so they could not come back later and reclaim their land, the child would say that was genocide. Yet that is what God commanded Joshua to do. And it was good, by definition.

if you told a child that someone set the devil loose on a man, and let them kill everything they had, including a score chidren, and destroy everything they had ever had, just to make a point that the man still wouldn’t badmouth him but would continue to bow down before him, the child would say that was inhuman. Yet that is what God did to Job, and it was good, by definition.

if you told a child that someone had killed 130,000 innocent people, because their king had wanted to know how many people he ruled, and had counted them in a census, the child would be horrified. Yet that is exactly what God did when David counted the Israelites. And it was good, by definition.

On second thought I guess the child wouldn’t think these were bad things, if you told the child regularly and consistently, they would be next, or burn in hell, for thinking they were bad things. This is one of the reasons I reject any of the biblical religions.

 

[Nakosis]

Does God have to be moral? There seems to be the presupposition that morality stems from God in some religious circles.
Well, do you believe it does?
Is the god of your faith a moral agent? Is it immoral not to follow your god?
Is it possible for a creator god to be immoral?
Can and does morality exist in absence of a god, or is god a necessary part of the equation?
When one is moral while holding disbelief in God, do you believe that their morality still comes from god?

I see morals an unconscious process of feelings. We feel something is right or we feel something is wrong. This feelings get programmed into us through genetics/evolution and culture/upbringing.

There maybe some conscious code we consider as guidelines but we are mostly directed by these unconscious feelings.

Since we are not conscious of the process or the source of these unconscious feelings of right and wrong it becomes easy to assume they come from an external "divine" source. Especially since evolution and culture create a lot of commonality in these "moral" feelings we share.

Culture may have conditioned you to feel it is immoral to disobey your God. Upbringing and experience may have cause you to start to question some of these unconscious moral feelings.

It is possible for your morals to change as you experience new things and new ideas. However some moral feelings seem very deeply wired into our brain which might never change even if we strongly wished we could.

 

[ppp]

Does God have to be moral? There seems to be the presupposition that morality stems from God in some religious circles.
Well, do you believe it does?
Is the god of your faith a moral agent? Is it immoral not to follow your god?
Is it possible for a creator god to be immoral?
Can and does morality exist in absence of a god, or is god a necessary part of the equation?
When one is moral while holding disbelief in God, do you believe that their morality still comes from god?

Morality is about the obligations and privileges of social beings recognizing one another and collaborating for a mutually beneficial society.. I don't even know how morality would apply to the thinking of a solitary non-social being. Especially one whose well-being literally cannot be affected by anything.

 

[Truth in love]

Does God have to be moral? There seems to be the presupposition that morality stems from God in some religious circles.
Well, do you believe it does?
Is the god of your faith a moral agent? Is it immoral not to follow your god?
Is it possible for a creator god to be immoral?
Can and does morality exist in absence of a god, or is god a necessary part of the equation?
When one is moral while holding disbelief in God, do you believe that their morality still comes from god?

God is moral (It required by eternal law, but that’s a side bit).

Can one me moral without believing in God? Yes it is a thing. History suggests that on a large scale people who believe are more likely to be moral, but it’s not absolute.

Since God is the law giver the decider of moral lines I would argue that one cannot be moral in a given act that runs counter to what God directs. However one could be moral in other areas where their actions are correct. (e.g if I steal but never murder my not killing is moral).

 

[osgart]

Morality is the responsibility one feels toward other living beings and creatures, and also toward one's self. It exists because of empathy toward others. Without empathy people have codes of conduct. Morality exists because life exists. There need not be any God for morality to exist.

Morality that is based on justifiable reasons is far superior to a morality that's commanded but not understood. If there were a God then that God should reveal the reasoning behind their morality. Following commands blindly is not a justifiable morality imo.

 

[Sheldon]

History suggests that on a large scale people who believe are more likely to be moral,

No it doesn't.

Since God is the law giver the decider of moral lines I would argue that one cannot be moral in a given act that runs counter to what God directs.

Well no offence, but you would wouldn't you, what value do you imagine your subjective bias in favour of your beliefs has an argument here? There is plenty of research spanning decades that demonstrates that atheists are at least as moral as theists, when using the same metric to measure morality. Relative crime rates among atheists and theists for example. In the US longstanding research demonstrates that there is a higher percentage of theists among prison populations than in the general population, particularly for violent crimes like murder and rape.

Or we could compare crime rates in Scandinavian countries that are almost entirely atheistic to say the US, which has a very high percentage of theists, particularly among western democracies.

 

[Nakosis]

Morality is about the obligations and privileges of social beings recognizing one another and collaborating for a mutually beneficial society.. I don't even know how morality would apply to the thinking of a solitary non-social being. Especially one whose well-being literally cannot be affected by anything.

Yes, why would God need morals?

 

[ppp]

Yes, why would God need morals?

Exactly so.

 

[Trailblazer]

New This is not my belief but teachings from well established Abrahamic religions that I’m familiar as well as supported in biblical writings. God is good. PERIOD! I.e. A thing is good because God says it is good. A man is righteous because he obeys the commandments of God. Good is objective, not subjective. And it is whatever God says it is.

I fully agree. God is by nature all-good so God sets the standards regarding what is good for humans.

And yet most 12-year-old, even Christians, would tell you that many of the things God does and commands us to do are immoral.

I disagree, but I am not going by the Bible because I believe that what the Bible says God did is an anthropomorphism of God and I believe that the laws in the Bible were written to apply to people living thousands of years ago, so they do not apply to people living in this age.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

 

[ppp]

I disagree, but I am not going by the Bible because I believe that what the Bible says God did is an anthropomorphism of God and I believe that the laws in the Bible were written to apply to people living thousands of years ago, so they do not apply to people living in this age.

Were those written words authored or inspired by God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Does God have to be moral?

No, because morality does not apply to God since God is not a human being....
God is by nature all-good. Humans by nature can be good or bad.

 

[IThoughtAboutIt]

I fully agree. God is by nature all-good so God sets the standards regarding what is good for humans.

I disagree, but I am not going by the Bible because I believe that what the Bible says God did is an anthropomorphism of God and I believe that the laws in the Bible were written to apply to people living thousands of years ago, so they do not apply to people living in this age.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

thank you for the welcome. It’s much appreciated!

 

[ppp]

I fully agree. God is by nature all-good so God sets the standards regarding what is good for humans.

Nah. God as described by sacred texts sounds exactly like a human of the era in which the text was written.

 

[Trailblazer]

Were those written words authored or inspired by God?

The Bible is a book written by various men who were allegedly inspired by God.
The words were certainly not authored by God and I doubt most of them were inspired by God.

 

[Trailblazer]

thank you for the welcome. It’s much appreciated!

I hope you stick around. You have some good ideas.