God Recreated the Earth 6,000 Years Ago!

[BilliardsBall]

None of which have left traces corresponding to the supposed time. Why?

That is an opinion, but like you, I sometimes disagree with the prevalent opinion, even if it hails from the scientific community. Some would argue features like the Marianas Trench are actually good evidence for these upheavals. And some scientists have taken extreme volcanism to have caused mass extinctions.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What about my Himalayas? Were they covered with the flood waters. What about Sagarmatha? How come the puny Mount Ararat was the first to come out?

I wasn't aware that the Bible says Mt. Ararat was the first to come out of the water (and again, many Hebrew scholars say it was a range of mountains and not, perhaps, what we call Ararat). Do you have a Bible verse(s) to support this idea? I only got from the text that the boat landed there, whether steered or not, and it says, "came to rest", so...

...By the way, that's a picture of trusting Jesus or resting for salvation. The ark "came to rest" instead of the people working/hoping to find "salvation" from the Flood. The Bible says Noah's ark is a picture or foreshadowing of baptism in Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Genesis 7 NIV
That's the whole of Genesis 7.

You can call it a straw man if you wish, but your source material clearly makes the claim that the "waters of the deep", along with heavy rainfall, released themselves over a 40 day period. The whole world was supposedly drowned for less than 6 months (150 days), and then everything went back to normal... So within a time frame of 5 months, all of this catastrophic upheaval took place

If, as you say, the mountains were washed away and/or seriously eroded, is this something that happened within those 150 days?

Are you also going to make the qualifying remark on the height of the waters being 23 feet above even above the highest mountains, or are you going to take the more rational stance that the entire flood was only 23 feet high, the latter of which poses very obvious problems for the claim that this flood killed everything...

And if, as you say, there is a complementary claim made by "Creation Scientists" which states that other catastrophes and highly volatile volcanic events happened in conjunction with this global deluge, then I'll happily address those as well. All those creationists have to do is support their claim with some physical evidence. All they need to do is show incredibly similar radiometric dates for geologic strata that are otherwise non contiguous...

For the record, I haven't brought up the fact that your source material also claims that the protagonist was 600 years old at the time, just to give you the benefit of the doubt.



Correct. The rest of flood waters supposedly came from under the Earth, right?
Still, however, it was over a 40 day period according to your source material.
Would you contest your source material?

Either way, in your defense of this creationist deluge story, you've already readily admitted that there isn't enough water anywhere in this closed system of a planet to cover the Earth at any depth, let alone the great claim made by the actual story in the Bible...

Out of curiosity, how do the Creation Scientists deal with this apparent statistical conundrum?
If there was a flood, but there wasn't enough water, how was there a flood?



Oddly enough, we know when the last few ice ages occurred and we know how they altered the landscapes. We know when, where, and how glaciation affected the local geology and we know this because we can observe it's effects. We can hop in a car, right now, and drive to places to study the marks left of the face of the Earth from the most recent Ice Age. We can dig down a little bit, or travel to places where natural erosion has exposed the remnants of Ice Ages prior to that one... Is it safe to assume, based on your arguments, that the Global Biblical Deluge (which couldn't have happened as described because there isn't enough water anyway) happened during one of these known time periods?

110,000 - 12,000 years ago... There's plenty of evidence of animal life before, during, and after that time period. I'll go to back yard this afternoon and dig up some evidence to show you if you don't believe me.

Past Climate Cycles: Ice Age Speculations
This link will be helpful.

Regardless of whether or not you say yes or no to the question of if the Global deluge took place just before these most recent Ice Ages, there are some serious and obvious contradictions to your source material that will have to be addressed...

You know, I have a cousin who revealed last Thanksgiving that he was a YEC. He jumped himself into a conversation that my sister (an Archaeologist) and I were having about some ancient native peoples out in Arizona. The conversation drifted towards my memories from visiting Badlands, NM and the Grand Canyon a few years ago and then obviously into the age of strata and layers and so on. He piped up with his not-on-topic rationalization about how Dinosaurs were just regular lizards that didn't die for hundreds or thousands of years. Lizards don't stop molting, he said, and have no limit to the size they can grow. So dinosaurs are little more than just really aged reptiles. He also argued that there have only ever been 3 triceratops found and that means that there's no evidence that more could have ever existed. He also said that there used to be an extra layer to the atmosphere, made of nothing but water, that God kept there just in case something bad happened and that he popped that layer at the time of the flood, thus adding to the totality of water necessary to completely flood the earth. All of that water then sank deep into the Earth, just below where our sensors can detect water today. He also said that all of the polar ice caps melted in a matter of seconds, which , if you ask me, is more a magical feat than taking 40 days to flood the whole place. The amount of global warming required to cause such a calamity would have baked Noah and his little boat faster than bacon under the broiler... His arguments were similar to yours, the only difference being that he was more true to his source material...

The point I'm trying to make is this:
Faith is not dependent on factual events. As such, for your own credibility, I suggest you stop attempting to jump through so many mental hoops in order to make the argument that these fantastic events were actually historically factual... Don't be like my cousin and make yourself look like a loon at dinner.

Faith IS dependent on factual events. Faith = trust and good trust = trusting in something or someone trustworthy. Blind faith is exactly that, independent of corroboration. But not all faith is blind faith.

I never said "all the geologic upheaval happened in 150 days". A Flood event would cause geologic changes for centuries after, and I personally believe there was a small Ice Age following the Flood.

I never said the polar caps melted instantly or etc. and I'm sorry you had a bad experience with one YEC who sounds zealous if not up-to-scratch on certain issues. I'm sure we'd get along in a lovely fashion, but I'd love to disciple and teach him some, too.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Faith IS dependent on factual events.

Then it's not really faith, is it?
This is off-topic, but if you require evidence of supposedly factual events, at what point are you relying on faith, and not your evidence of supposedly factual events?

I never said "all the geologic upheaval happened in 150 days". A Flood event would cause geologic changes for centuries after, and I personally believe there was a small Ice Age following the Flood.

You don't have too - part of the implication that you Earth-Flooders make when you assert that this global flood actually happened is that most, if not all, of the geological formations around the world were a result of the weight of all this water that miraculously appeared. There are other implications as well, which never seem to get addressed in these types of debates.

Why would a flood event cause geologic changes for centuries after? From most all flood observations, areas recover in a very short amount of time.
Also, while it may be your personal belief that a "small ice age" occurred after the flood, what do you base that on? If your type of faith requires evidence of factual events, what evidence do you have to support such an idea?

I never said the polar caps melted instantly or etc.

I didn't say that you did. But, again, the implication is there based on the amount of water that would be required to pull off the flood to the scale that you are asserting.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with one YEC who sounds zealous if not up-to-scratch on certain issues. I'm sure we'd get along in a lovely fashion, but I'd love to disciple and teach him some, too.

Not a bad experience. He's my cousin afterall, and it's no different than any other YEC or creationist arguments, based mostly in wishful thinking and not established whatsoever in factual arguments.

 

[Bunyip]

I appreciate your persistence, but I've witnessed to you several times now that it was hyperbole and not deliberate falsehood. I'd like you to please accept my apology and move on rather than call me a liar again. Like you, I delight in getting my good facts out in a debate and rely less on ad homonym to "win" a debate. I can with a clear conscience tell you that I wasn't lying, and your conscience will be cleared as well should you choose to accept my apology and move on.

I accept your apology, but would like to point out that you do not appear to know what hyperbole means. Hyperbole would be an exaggeration, not a fabrication as we find in this case.

As for the mountains existing pre-Flood in the Bible in this passage, why not use Occam's Razor? Some centuries after the Flood, Moses wrote, in part:

"And then the ark came to rest upon (what we people call today) the mountain range of Ararat..."

Further, there could have been mountains pre-Flood, just fewer of them and/or less high, as well as shallower ocean basins pre-Flood, to satisfy Flood conditions. you may have a different interpretation, which is your prerogative.

Thanks.

The mountains 10,000 years ago were pretty much the same as they are now. They change slowly. There is no evidence whatsoever of a global flood, and plenty of evidence against it. If you think that the earth is 6000 years old, that is a margin of error of about a million to one. It is about the same margin for error if you claimed that the continental United States was the width of a bus. That's why you have to make stuff up about billiard ball flat Worlds. You can not even make a case for the flood without inventing evidences.

 

[Aupmanyav]

...By the way, that's a picture of trusting Jesus or resting for salvation. The ark "came to rest" instead of the people working/hoping to find "salvation" from the Flood. The Bible says Noah's ark is a picture or foreshadowing of baptism in Jesus Christ.

What I get is: "Genesis 8, 10. And he waited yet another seven days, and again he sent the dove out from the ark.11. Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth." So after the great flood, an olive sapling sprang up in seven days.

I personally believe there was a small Ice Age following the Flood.

It is commonly taken in the scientific world in the reverse, and perhaps you too would agree. First the ice age, then the melts and floods.

 

[outhouse]

That is an opinion

No fact.

 

[outhouse]

Faith IS dependent on factual events.

No it is not.

Faith is belief with no evidence what so ever to substantiate ones beliefs.

 

[outhouse]

I personally believe

In everything but academia, because you literally throw so many different branches out the window, it only leaves you with a fundamentalist point of view.

 

[jonathan180iq]

As for the mountains existing pre-Flood in the Bible in this passage, why not use Occam's Razor? Some centuries after the Flood, Moses wrote, in part:

"And then the ark came to rest upon (what we people call today) the mountain range of Ararat..."

There is no evidence that Moses ever existed, for what it's worth.
And the absolute oldest artifact for the existence of your source material comes from roughly 600 BCE.
So to claim that "Moses" wrote about something that supposedly happened just a "few centuries" prior, essentially dates your flood story...
Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming these ancient passages were written in 1,000 BCE, that puts Moses' writing around, what, 1200, BCE? 1400 BCE?
Let's double that, just for poops and wiggles, and assume that your ancient source material was written in 2,000 BCE, dating Moses' scribblings to as early as 2,400 BCE... We have to then ask ourselves if there is any evidence of human activity from that time period.

Well, yes, there is:
The Bronze Age: 3rd millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Middle Bronze Age: 2nd millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

24th Century BCE: 24th century BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Heck, even if we triple or quadruple the known age of your religion's scriptures, you're still talking about an event that would have happened during the beginnings of the Bronze Age...

4th Millennium BCE: 4th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5th Millennium BCE: 5th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were people everywhere! Since the dawn of man there have always been large populations.
No one died in a 6 mile high wall of water. Not a single civilization was unanimously destroyed in a flood. There was no peopling of the Earth that came from 8 individuals. There was no pairing of animals on a ship. There was nothing of the sort.

What you're attempting to defend is pure fantasy.

You can make as many excuses and defenses of this global flood as your heart desires, but it's simply not cohesive with the supported and factual History of the world, in any field.
You make a few more attempts by trying to place your version of the global flood deep in the past, but that doesn't mesh with human history, since the whole reason for your story is the supposed cleansing of the planet of inequity because God was unhappy with people's behaviors... You either have to place this purported global flood in the time frame of human existence or you don't - both commitments exclude the actual narrative of your source material, no matter how you try to split the hairs. There will always be problems with your defenses of this mythological event for the very reason that it is mythological.

Further, there could have been mountains pre-Flood, just fewer of them and/or less high, as well as shallower ocean basins pre-Flood, to satisfy Flood conditions. you may have a different interpretation, which is your prerogative.

Well, the Appalachians first formed during the Grenville Orogeny, back before Pangea finshed doing its dance and split. Then there was the Acadian Orogeny followed by the Alleghenian Orogeny, if I'm not mistaken on the order. The first, the Grenville, happened like 1.2 billion years ago. Back then, the Himalayas were non-existent and the Appalachians were the rulers of the sky...

If you want evidence that the Earth was never flat, and that mountains have been around since before dawn of time on this planet, all you have to do is study the Appalachians. They'll teach you what weathering over incredibly long periods of time can do to something as majestic as the Himalayas or the Rockies. Some of the oldest rock ever found in the world came out of the Blue Ridge Mountains, not an hour drive from me. And, as I've said before, the layers that make up the lower Appalachians, as well as the majority of the Ridge and Valley section of the US, contain Pre-Cambrian, Cambrian, and Ordovician layers. How would any of that be possible, and in proper order, if everything was souped up and laid down during this supposed flood period?

So, again, at what point in history does this supposed global flood, caused by the evolved Canaanite God El (or is it Yahweh, brother of Baal), take place?

PS: Remember how I told you that I could walk up these exposed layers at my mom's place? Traveling East, by foot, I can physically pass over millions of years worth of history, beginning with Precambrian and ending in Ordovician? Think about that and look at the last graphic posted above. East, for me, is up the mountain we call Rocky Face Ridge and towards the sea. Do you see how what I experience in real life is exactly the same as the graphic?

 

[Salvador]

"There were people everywhere! Since the dawn of man there have always been large populations. ... There was no peopling of the Earth that came from 8 individuals. " - Jonathan180iq

Yes, you're correct, there is overwhelming genetic evidence that there have always been at least 10,000 people living at anytime throughout human history. Proof That Quranic/Biblical Adam Did Not Exist | ReligiousForums.com

 

[outhouse]

So, again, at what point in history does this supposed global flood, caused by the evolved Canaanite God El (or is it Yahweh, brother of Baal), take place?

He has been ducking and dodging WHEN it took place since the thread began.

It would have to have actually happened for him to provide a date.

 

[jonathan180iq]

It would have to have actually happened for him to provide a date.

Which is why I'm trying to get him to see that, and to admit it to himself so he can move on to more worthwhile apologetic endeavors.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Then it's not really faith, is it?
This is off-topic, but if you require evidence of supposedly factual events, at what point are you relying on faith, and not your evidence of supposedly factual events?



You don't have too - part of the implication that you Earth-Flooders make when you assert that this global flood actually happened is that most, if not all, of the geological formations around the world were a result of the weight of all this water that miraculously appeared. There are other implications as well, which never seem to get addressed in these types of debates.

Why would a flood event cause geologic changes for centuries after? From most all flood observations, areas recover in a very short amount of time.
Also, while it may be your personal belief that a "small ice age" occurred after the flood, what do you base that on? If your type of faith requires evidence of factual events, what evidence do you have to support such an idea?



I didn't say that you did. But, again, the implication is there based on the amount of water that would be required to pull off the flood to the scale that you are asserting.



Not a bad experience. He's my cousin afterall, and it's no different than any other YEC or creationist arguments, based mostly in wishful thinking and not established whatsoever in factual arguments.

Faith is trust. I'm neither gullible nor willing to trust in things I have no knowledge of or experience with... you are again defining faith as "blind faith" or "wishful thinking".

 

[BilliardsBall]

There is no evidence that Moses ever existed, for what it's worth.
And the absolute oldest artifact for the existence of your source material comes from roughly 600 BCE.
So to claim that "Moses" wrote about something that supposedly happened just a "few centuries" prior, essentially dates your flood story...
Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming these ancient passages were written in 1,000 BCE, that puts Moses' writing around, what, 1200, BCE? 1400 BCE?
Let's double that, just for poops and wiggles, and assume that your ancient source material was written in 2,000 BCE, dating Moses' scribblings to as early as 2,400 BCE... We have to then ask ourselves if there is any evidence of human activity from that time period.

Well, yes, there is:
The Bronze Age: 3rd millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Middle Bronze Age: 2nd millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

24th Century BCE: 24th century BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Heck, even if we triple or quadruple the known age of your religion's scriptures, you're still talking about an event that would have happened during the beginnings of the Bronze Age...

4th Millennium BCE: 4th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5th Millennium BCE: 5th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were people everywhere! Since the dawn of man there have always been large populations.
No one died in a 6 mile high wall of water. Not a single civilization was unanimously destroyed in a flood. There was no peopling of the Earth that came from 8 individuals. There was no pairing of animals on a ship. There was nothing of the sort.

What you're attempting to defend is pure fantasy.

You can make as many excuses and defenses of this global flood as your heart desires, but it's simply not cohesive with the supported and factual History of the world, in any field.
You make a few more attempts by trying to place your version of the global flood deep in the past, but that doesn't mesh with human history, since the whole reason for your story is the supposed cleansing of the planet of inequity because God was unhappy with people's behaviors... You either have to place this purported global flood in the time frame of human existence or you don't - both commitments exclude the actual narrative of your source material, no matter how you try to split the hairs. There will always be problems with your defenses of this mythological event for the very reason that it is mythological.



Well, the Appalachians first formed during the Grenville Orogeny, back before Pangea finshed doing its dance and split. Then there was the Acadian Orogeny followed by the Alleghenian Orogeny, if I'm not mistaken on the order. The first, the Grenville, happened like 1.2 billion years ago. Back then, the Himalayas were non-existent and the Appalachians were the rulers of the sky...

If you want evidence that the Earth was never flat, and that mountains have been around since before dawn of time on this planet, all you have to do is study the Appalachians. They'll teach you what weathering over incredibly long periods of time can do to something as majestic as the Himalayas or the Rockies. Some of the oldest rock ever found in the world came out of the Blue Ridge Mountains, not an hour drive from me. And, as I've said before, the layers that make up the lower Appalachians, as well as the majority of the Ridge and Valley section of the US, contain Pre-Cambrian, Cambrian, and Ordovician layers. How would any of that be possible, and in proper order, if everything was souped up and laid down during this supposed flood period?

So, again, at what point in history does this supposed global flood, caused by the evolved Canaanite God El (or is it Yahweh, brother of Baal), take place?

PS: Remember how I told you that I could walk up these exposed layers at my mom's place? Traveling East, by foot, I can physically pass over millions of years worth of history, beginning with Precambrian and ending in Ordovician? Think about that and look at the last graphic posted above. East, for me, is up the mountain we call Rocky Face Ridge and towards the sea. Do you see how what I experience in real life is exactly the same as the graphic?

Are you saying there is documentary evidence of modern society earlier than circa 5,000 BP? Any dates given to pre-Flood society has to be either organic/C14 dating, radiometric dating, or guesswork.

It's not at all pure fantasy. As a matter of fact, I've seen some lovely position papers on how it is the Flood accounts for the great differences between the Appalachians and the Rockies!

 

[BilliardsBall]

"There were people everywhere! Since the dawn of man there have always been large populations. ... There was no peopling of the Earth that came from 8 individuals. " - Jonathan180iq

Yes, you're correct, there is overwhelming genetic evidence that there have always been at least 10,000 people living at anytime throughout human history. Proof That Quranic/Biblical Adam Did Not Exist | ReligiousForums.com

I'm familiar with the pro- and anti-genetic Adam and Eve and 10,000 progenitors arguments.

 

[outhouse]

guesswork.

is what your doing.

No date for a flood? then it did not happen

 

[outhouse]

It's not at all pure fantasy.

Most call it mythology

 

[jonathan180iq]

Faith is trust.

Yes it is. It's trusting in things unseen.
This conversation, however, deals with things that are quite obviously seen, yet ignored by Creationists and Biblical Literalists because they don't fit into your preferred worldview.

I'm neither gullible nor willing to trust in things I have no knowledge of or experience with...

Yet here you are making arguments for a global catastrophic deluge that, admittedly, has some very serious problems from the onset, namely that there is not enough water on Earth to have achieved such an event...

you are again defining faith as "blind faith" or "wishful thinking".

Which is what it is...
Your faith in the Genesis Deluge, and even your preferred religion, is not at issue here. Your assertion that this flood was a factually historical event is.

Are you saying there is documentary evidence of modern society earlier than circa 5,000 BP

Yes I am.

6th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

7th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

8th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

9th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

10th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Timeline of human prehistory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Am I to assume by the question you asked that you believe this catastrophic global flood took place sometime around 5,000 BCE?

Any dates given to pre-Flood society has to be either organic/C14 dating, radiometric dating, or guesswork.

Firstly, saying that Pre-Flood society has to be dated by a certain methods implies that you know when this flood took place, thus giving a line of division between Pre and Post Flood societies.

So, when did this event take place?

And secondly, why limit it to C-14? Is it because of your assumption that this mythological event actually took place and that all things which occurred before the flood are not open to testing by more accurate methods? Or because you know that C-14 dating has limitations which will help to support your view?

Radiocarbon Dating

It's not at all pure fantasy. As a matter of fact, I've seen some lovely position papers on how it is the Flood accounts for the great differences between the Appalachians and the Rockies!

I don't doubt that you've read some well-written articles by people who share your bias. But did you bother to question those papers, or did you nod your head in a happy little round of confirmation bias?
Just to give you an example, did these position papers bother to address the actual geologic and radio-metric dates of these two ranges?

The Appalachians have exposed surfaces over a billion years old. The Rockies have exposed surfaces that are only 300 million years old... That's a colossal gap in time. Did those position papers address that issue? Did Noah's flood actually last 700 millions years? Now sure, there are parts of the core of the Rockies that are nearly a billions years old, but nothing exposed. But even if we assume that both orogenies were contemporary of each other, why didn't the flood, which I'm guessing you're going to suggest eroded the Appalachians, do as much damage to the Rockies? Wouldn't the fact that the Rockies still being sharp and majestic, using your logic, imply that they were above the water? I mean, if the Flood severely eroded the Appalachians like it did, surely it must have supplied the same devastating force on the Rockies, right? And if not, if the Rockies were actually high and dry, then the Biblical explanation that the flood was global and submerged everything would be inaccurate, right?

See the problems with this stance? There's simply no way to reconcile the vast number of differences in the stories, regardless of interpretation.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Some would argue features like the Marianas Trench are actually good evidence for these upheavals.

Nope...