CarlinKnew
Well-Known Member
I don't know. That's why I asked.
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God tests Abraham
- Thread starter 839311
- Start date
outhouse
Atheistically
where it all ties in is in realizing, [as you may have] that what would become ancinet hebrews were Canaanite but also a large amount of Mesopotamians, these two groups pale in comparison to the few smaller groups that came from Egypt making up the minority of the population.
Had more people came from Egypt, we would still be running with a Egyptian version of the OT instead of the Mesopotamian lineage we see.
arthra
Baha'i
839311 wrote:
"Second, isn't it cruel on God's part to give this test? How would you feel, and what would you do, if God called your name and then told you to sacrifice your child?"
......................................
My reply:
Your second problem is based on your own concept of God...
Job lost his family and the bet was he would curse God but he didn't.:
1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
1:13 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 1:14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the ***** feeding beside them: 1:15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Sacrifice was a common way ancient people had to placate what they believed about their god(s).. so this was a "test" that Abraham was willing to give His all. Read further in the Bible Psalm 51 where it says:
51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
God also promised that the progeny of Abraham would fill the middle east and apparently they did.
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arthra
Baha'i
22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
(King James Bible, Genesis)
Ask yourself when did Abraham have only "one" son.
dyanaprajna2011
Dharmapala
arthra said:
Actually, the concept of god that theists give is that god is caring, kind, loving, compassionate, like a father, etc. This is also the way they present the teachings of their holy texts. The problem with this is, in stories like the one in the OP, is that they don't fit this mold. Stories like these, and others found in the Bible and elsewhere, do not present the concept of god that we are told that he is. So there's a contradiction between what we are told, and what we read. If a theist were to tell me, that god can be loving, but he can also sometimes be mean, or that god is kind at some times, but also cruel at others, then this would more adequately explain what we read. It's the theists who present god in a good light, like the qualities I've mentioned, and then wonder why atheists don't accept him/her/it after reading things such as this.
Levite
Higher and Higher
First of all, the word that is usually translated as "fear" is better rendered as "hold in awe." One is not supposed to be afraid of God, one is supposed to hold Him in awe.
Second of all, the implication of this midrash is that that is what God told Abraham as a comfort to the old man, so as not to upset him by letting him know he had failed to do what God wished of him.
Midrash is parable, and uses anthropomorphic language, just as many stories in Tanach use anthropomorphic language. We don't know how God truly thinks and feels, any more than we can be 100% certain of what God communicates through prophets, since even the prophets are only human, and cannot fully comprehend the touch of the divine. So we use anthropomorphic language to fill in the blanks.
If the story of the Akedah (binding of Isaac) even happened historically, we can't know if that was truly what God was asking of Abraham, or why, much less whether He really stopped him at the last minute with that particular explanation. So we make midrashim to try and fill in the blanks.
If it did happen as this midrash suggests, then presumably God's willingness not to know in advance that Abraham would fail the test suggest that as part of tzimtzum (the idea in Kabbalah that God contracts Himself in order to make room for the existence of anything else), God sometimes voluntarily limits His own omniscience, to make room for human free will; and perhaps as a way of observing human events in a way more sympathetic to human experience.
To get Abraham to argue with God, as he did over the preservation of Sedom and Emorah (Sodom and Gomorrah), where he demanded of God that He spare the cities if a certain number of blameless people were to be found there, starting at fifty, and eventually settling at ten people (and when even ten were not to be found, God still arranged for the rescue of Lot and his family, who were apparently the only relatively blameless people in Sedom).
We understand that sometimes one must argue with God. He doesn't always want blind obedience and blind faith, He often wants independent thought, and a recognition of what is right.
That's why this midrash connects the Akedah to the incident on Sinai, when Moses stands up for the people, even when they sin, and demands that God not destroy them, but rather, forgive them. Because even though God expresses a wish, and blind obedience might indicate that one should just resignedly say, "thy will be done," Moses knows that destroying the people would be wrong, and forgiving them would be right, and demands that God, as the source and teacher of all justice and lovingkindness, act justly and with lovingkindness. And this pleases God, because He doesn't just want blind obedience, He wants creatures that value justice and lovingkindness as much as He does.
I'm actually not interested in whether the Akedah was historical fact or not. I'm interested in, theologically, how can I understand a story in Torah that seems to depict the Master of the World doing something absolutely unforgivable, and understand it in such a way that I can still pray to Him.
If you want to dismiss that as a rationalization, fine. But as far as I can tell, that is the heart of the midrashic endeavor, and one of the foundations of the Rabbinic enterprise.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Bruce said:
I've rechecked this. The Qur'an is indeed ambiguous about this (though it seems to favor that it was Ishmael), but the Baha'i Faith is quite clear about the fact that it was indeed Ishmael who was nearly sacrificed.
Peace,
Bruce
That was not my impression, but I'm far from an expert.
I understand.
Couldn't God have informed them that he wasn't a fan of sacrificing animals, and that his followers should show their appreciation and praise in non-violent ways? Im assuming a god-like being wouldn't want animals to be sacrificed. Seems like a barbaric practice, not to mention a waste of food.
The connection is of course obvious. If animal sacrifice is wrong to begin with, all the more so the sacrifice of people. But it depends who you ask. The Aztecs were big fans of human sacrifices, so you might have gotten support from them if they were still around. Somehow I doubt that God, if he exists, would approve.
Thats a heavy statement. You'd have to have evidence for it to be worth anything. Fortunately, we have genetics! I did a bit of reading on it just now, and the scientists seem to be making a lot of progress. If there already isnt, there will soon be a thorough study done on all middle eastern populations which should reveal what the genetic histories look like. Personally, I highly doubt that progeny of Abraham "filled" the middle east, whatetever exactly that is supposed to mean. There certainly arent many jews there, and the claim that arabs are the descendants of Ishmael is unsubstantiated. Also, it would basically mean that Abrahams descendants would have more or less displaced all other tribes and nations throughout the middle east. I highly doubt thats the case.
gnostic
The Lost One
From the the way I see it, if god is supposed to be omniscient as some believers have led us to believe, then why bother to test Abraham's faith in this fashion?
The only answer that I can come up with, is this:
The near-sacrifice episode is like a typical Hollywood action movie, where the secret ingredient required a fair dose of car chases, and lots and lots of explosions. So while we are dazzled by the flashes or the whiz-bang, we will not see the flaws in the shallow plot.
The biblical stories like this about Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, actually allows room for the readers to interpret God's motives for the test.
I would have to say that god want people to fear him as much love him. Both Abraham & Job were seen as his most faithful and devout servants. But it would seem that it was their fear were the contributing factor of their devotefullness.
The only answer that I can come up with, is this:
The near-sacrifice episode is like a typical Hollywood action movie, where the secret ingredient required a fair dose of car chases, and lots and lots of explosions. So while we are dazzled by the flashes or the whiz-bang, we will not see the flaws in the shallow plot.
The biblical stories like this about Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, actually allows room for the readers to interpret God's motives for the test.
I would have to say that god want people to fear him as much love him. Both Abraham & Job were seen as his most faithful and devout servants. But it would seem that it was their fear were the contributing factor of their devotefullness.
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gnostic
The Lost One
arthra said:
BruceDLimber said:
Judging by the Genesis version of the story, Sarah was Abraham's wife, and Hagar was Sarah's slave girl which Sarah made into Abraham's concubine. Sarah had acquired Hagar when they were in Egypt during a famine in Canaan. So Abraham's inheritences would go to the child of his legitimate wife.
Sarah has authority over Hagar's and ishmael's fate, which would explain why she could demand for them to be sent away, because Hagar was still essentially her slave, not Abraham's.
So Isaac was the only legitimate son of Abraham and Sarah.
Thats not what dyana says in post #2. Also the often threatening, wrathful and angry personality of God in the OT would be consistent with a being that would want others to fear him.
That seems like a bad idea. If we don't know, we should leave it at that.
Same as above.
Nice, some good ideas here. Minus the biblical mythology, this is worth something.
I think a good case could be made that arguing with god might never be justified. I would expect a being of god's supposed powers and wisdom and intelligence to know best. I would expect nothing but wisdom and intelligence coming from him. The only problem is, us humans aren't all that intelligent and wise, so arguments would probably come from our side anyways.
I hope he never wants these.
Lets hope he always wants this. Thinking for yourself is underrated.
Have you ever studied other scriptures, say the bhagavad gita or the lotus sutra, with an open mind that there could be useful ideas in there for you? You don't have to limit yourself to Jewish theology just because your background is jewish, assuming it is. Im saying this because you seem fairly open-minded with the Torah. If you took that same approach you could learn a lot from all kinds of good ideas developed in other religions.
I've rechecked this. The Qur'an is indeed ambiguous about this (though it seems to favor that it was Ishmael), but the Baha'i Faith is quite clear about the fact that it was indeed Ishmael who was nearly sacrificed.
Peace,
Bruce
So, the Torah says it was Isaac.
The Koran doesn't say who it was.
The Baha'i faith says it was Ishmael.
lol
And you find that funny why?So, the Torah says it was Isaac.
The Koran doesn't say who it was.
The Baha'i faith says it was Ishmael.
lol
Maybe if there happened to be 3 more abrahamic faiths there could have been more possibilities. One version could have a daughter being sacrificed, the second a brother, and the other Abe's favorite pet lol
you cant see the humor in that?
You can't see the petty childishness in that?
'cos it is?
cablescavenger
Well-Known Member
In this story (and I do see it as a story), neither Abraham nor God come off as being very bright (strange considering one of them was supposed to have created everything, and the other is supposed to be a vessel for passing on the wisdom of the message).
Knowing that they are both held in high esteem in the major religions warms the cockles of my heart:hugkiss::dan: :hearts: