lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
God dod not create a race of robots who simply go about following some pre arranged program. Do you really feel that you have no choice at all in the things that you do? So sad.
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God the Sadist?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Skwim
Veteran Member
There would be no reason to create hell as an alternative if death had never been established in the first place.
AND, the fact remains that god knows that even before persons A, B, C. . . . . . . X, Y, and ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ are born they are going to end up in hell. Nice guy this god of yours. "Let's see . . . although I know Rocco Butternut and Sally Sleaze will have their short lives filled to the brim with misfortunes and suffering, and that they'll eventually end up in hell, I'm going to create them anyway because. . . . . . . . . . . .that's what I like. *If I didn't like it I wouldn't make it*."
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sealchan
Well-Known Member
There is another way to read this scripture that doesn't make God out to be such a sadist...sort of. First we should start with an appreciation for what it is like to live in this world whether we are believers or not. There is suffering. Also, we experience our morality and our coming into awareness in morality often through some transgression we have knew we were doing but didn't really understand until we suffered the consequences for it. This is, in fact, a model of good parenting...allowing your children to experience the consequences of their own actions and encourage them to manage the outcome themselves because...well, they can handle it.
Of course, this story is meant to explain how the world is, how we experience it. The story-tellers had to come up with a story about how God created a good universe and then let his creatures in His own image mess it all up. Why do we suffer if God is good? We are given some of the responsibility. This also means we have the ability to be responsible.
I think we can all agree that there is suffering in this world. If you believe that God created this world and that He is good then you do have a real mystery on your hands. But part of that mystery is that we are responsible for the good or evil we do and in that way we have real power.
So perhaps it is either God or the Goddess or the quantum vacuum fluctuation which is the sadist...however you look at it the problem and the opportunity are the same.
Of course, this story is meant to explain how the world is, how we experience it. The story-tellers had to come up with a story about how God created a good universe and then let his creatures in His own image mess it all up. Why do we suffer if God is good? We are given some of the responsibility. This also means we have the ability to be responsible.
I think we can all agree that there is suffering in this world. If you believe that God created this world and that He is good then you do have a real mystery on your hands. But part of that mystery is that we are responsible for the good or evil we do and in that way we have real power.
So perhaps it is either God or the Goddess or the quantum vacuum fluctuation which is the sadist...however you look at it the problem and the opportunity are the same.
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Maybe adam was a very good free spirit knew God which I believe jesus then a foreigner entered in the garden and pacified the woman. That guy left and handed out social writtening to various parts of the world. Oh maybe he was inventive to put them to work, add atheism into the "plan of salvation". Job what a book. Then since pacifying the woman wouldnt be enough how about I go over here a make hyperventalating males. Then over here and there. Now technology to through at people. And new atoms and gaddafi.
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
I believe that this is a key concept. One that tips the scales for many when considering a Abrahamic religion.
I believe that God is a perfected and glorified Being and we are His literal children. He hopes that we would progress and grow to one day become like Him.
A part of the process of becoming like Him involves being given a period of time where we can be free to choose between Good and Evil.
God is perfect and any who would choose to be like Him must also become perfect. No Being can become perfect without a knowledge of Good and Evil. For to be perfect is to choose the Good over the Evil always and forever.
This means, any Being who wishes to be perfect would first need to know and understand what Evil is, or else how could they truly choose to oppose it?
God, being perfect, created a paradisiacal world and placed Adam and Eve upon it. However, their condition was not one of mortality. They were in a state of innocence. Without a knowledge of Good and Evil. They also were not subject to physical death.
God could not introduce sin and death into the world, because He is a perfected Being. Yet, both were needed in order for His children to eventually become like Him.
Therefore, God planted a tree in the midst of the Garden and told Adam what would befall him if he were to partake of the fruit of that tree.
He was not pronouncing punishments, but rather explaining the natural consequences of what would happen to him if he were to eat of the fruit.
Adam and Eve needed to enter into a Fallen state, or mortality, of their own free will. God could not force it upon them.
So they fell, and all Men are fallen, but He also gave to Adam and Eve the means whereby they could overcome both sin and death.
Yes, God's plan for us involves suffering, but it is that experience that can lead us to eventual perfection and eternal glory.
stevevw
Member
Without a God what is the alternative? We are only left with ourselves to blame. But that's when we start to make all the excuses to justify our behaviour. Are we not the same as what people are accusing of God. Do we not know what we are doing and what the consequences of our actions will lead to in the end. We knowingly create a world that will kill millions and justify it as being OK when we know it's not. Some have too much wealth and die of diseases from gluttonous lifestyles while others cannot find scraps to eat and die of starvation while many turn their backs because they do not want to give up their comfortable lifestyles to save those who are less fortunate. Many plunder the earth's resources all the while knowing that they are stealing their children's future and making life harder with more suffering in the end because they don't want to give up their lifestyles. Some will kill for a penny and others will rape and plunder. We create the world we live in and we reap what we have sown.
When God is taken out of the picture what are we left with? Do we then take the responsibility and apply the same scrutiny to ourselves that some want to blame God for? Are we not putting ourselves in the position of God and playing God when we make certain decisions which will end up doing more harm than good. We know what the end results will be but we rationalise it away and pretend it's OK and won't happen to us.
When God is taken out of the picture what are we left with? Do we then take the responsibility and apply the same scrutiny to ourselves that some want to blame God for? Are we not putting ourselves in the position of God and playing God when we make certain decisions which will end up doing more harm than good. We know what the end results will be but we rationalise it away and pretend it's OK and won't happen to us.
I don't believe in a god but I still am charitable, even specifically charitable to those in poverty (I do gleaning, reclaiming unpicked or unwanted farmed foods to distribute to low income families and the elderly.) Clearly having empathy towards other humans and concern over ecosystem doesn't need belief in a god to exist.
Biblical hell is Not an alternative. The day of Jesus' death Jesus went to the Bible's hell or grave for the sleeping ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ dead. - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
If biblical hell was a permanent place then dead Jesus would still be in hell or the grave.
The Bible's definition of death is defined as: unconscious sleep as Jesus taught at John 11:11-14
Jesus was teaching what he was taught from the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach the dead know nothing:
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Biblical hell (grave) is temporary in nature in that there will be a resurrection for those in biblical hell.
Jesus has keys to unlock hell ( the grave ) for us - Revelation 1:18, then, emptied-out hell will be cast into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell - Revelation 20:13-14
God did Not force A&E to break God's Law. A&E had the free-will choice to obey or disobey.
Death was the penalty, Not death plus something else. Just returning to dust - Genesis 3:19
' Death with Fire ' would be double jeopardy since one's death already paid for one's sins - Romans 6:7,23
So, God created angelic life and created human life as free-moral creation to either listen or Not listen.
So, to me, God knows there will be a happy conclusion for mankind -> Revelation 22:2
But, as to 'who' will be part of that happy coming millennial time is by the use of one's free-will choices.
The figurative sheep and goats are Not judged before hand, otherwise there would be No need to explain why the goats have an adverse judgement and the sheep have a favorable judgement - Matthew 25:31-33,37
To me, you have a spiritual side, or are conscious of a spiritual need, by your showing of love toward others.
However, having empathy or ecosystem concerns will Not resurrect the dead.
Because we can Not resurrect oneself or another shows we need someone who can resurrect us.
Scripture teaches that Jesus can and will resurrect the dead - Revelation 1:18
I recall years ago a young man saying there was No difference between a police's man ball and a church ball to raise charitable funds. Both serve the same purpose, so religion was Not necessary to be charitable.
So, true, religion is Not necessary to be charitable, because even a crook can also be charitable.
If being charitable was enough, then the world would be in better shape than it is today.
There are many charities and still soo much food shortage, etc. ( sometimes even due to un-even food distribution )
So, neither charity nor ecosystem concerns can bring Peace on Earth.
According to Scripture only Jesus, as Prince of Peace, can usher in Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
Then, and only then, will there be healing for earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2
That is why we are asked to pray the invitation for Jesus to come - Revelation 22:20
Come and bring Peace on Earth so there will be No more poor, and No polluted Earth - Micah 4:3-4
I don't believe in god(s) or the claims about the ultimate fate of the Earth and the people on it according to the bible. But I still believe that charity is worth doing for the people it does help, even if ultimately you cannot fix every problem. I don't feel like there needs to be a perfect solution to go out and do my part.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Of course it is: Heaven or hell.
I won't get into an argument over this, but just so you know that I know.
Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
I can agree with some of the ^ above^ because the illustrative story about the neighborly good Samaritan does teach charity is worth doing. That Samaritan did it on a one-on-one basis as his circumstances allowed him to be helpful.
Thus Jesus was teaching us to widen out, or broaden out, in lovingly helping others in need on a one-on-one basis.
Even if you don't believe in the 'ultimate fate ' ( a paradisical earth with No more death - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8 ) does Not mean Scripture is wrong in that the humble meek will inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:10-11.
So, besides doing now what we can be doing is just a temporary patch, whereas telling others as Jesus did about the permanent good news of God's kingdom government which will ultimately fix every problem.
- Daniel 2:44; Micah 4:3-4; Matthew 24:14; Luke 4:43; Revelation 22:2
I notice ^ above ^ you equate' fire with destruction '. Such as in: repent or ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) 2 Peter 3:9
Eternal and everlasting as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be ' destroyed ' ( annihilated ) forever.
So, often in Scripture fire is symbolic of destruction.
The fire of Gehenna - Matthew 18:8 - was symbolic of: destruction.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever and never kept burning forever.
So, the word Gehenna (translated into English as eternal fire KJV ) stands for: destruction.