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God V. Satan. Off the top of my head.

Skwim

Veteran Member
fallingblood said:
How do you know what God wants and does not want?
I just assume that when someone freely does something, like create evil, they did so because they wanted it. :shrug:

The Satan in Job is not the Christian figure of Satan.
So There are two fellows that go by the name "Satan"?

Which actually speaks about the adversary. All interpretation of this use of the term ha-satan, before the first century (and even quite some time after that), was of an adversary. An angel (and the verses show this) who was under the power of God (which is why the being never does anything without asking God's permission).
I just checked 17 versions of Job 1:6 and none used the term "ha-satan." Only "Satan." Moreover, the "ha" of "ha-Satan" means "the". Thus, "ha-satan" means "the satan."
(Source: Wikipedia)

Not really. Satan has only been placed in the Bible after the fact, because the idea later became important for some Christians (the ones who ended up gaining power).
After what fact? Job was written before Christianity came into being. In any case, regardless of its use in the past, Christians today consider it to be his name (they don't refer to him as "the Satan.") And I believe this is the important issue, how Christianity today regards the words and deeds of the Bible. Do the majority of Christians regard the character in the Torah referred as ha-satan as Satan? Yes they do. This is why in the first chapter of Job he's referred to as ha-satan in the Torah, and as Satan in Christian Bibles. Same guy, just a different denotation.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Or if god is symbolic. From my understanding of Christian theology both are quite real.

Job is consider by scholars as being a symbolic story, so the first version of "Satan" as the accuser is not even a real entity. The story was a parable.

Satan in the NT is seen as more a tempter than an accuser- but that can be taken as symbolic as well (Jesus resisted the temptation while Judas did not). The "Morning Star" mentioned in Isaiah wasn't Satan at all but the Prince of Babylon.
So Satan can very easily be seen as symbolic. I am not going to try and convince you, I am just stating why I would see Satan as being possibly symbolic.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Job is consider by scholars as being a symbolic story, so the first version of "Satan" as the accuser is not even a real entity. The story was a parable.
Are you saying that the Satan of Job has no real life counterpart?
Other books of the OT seem to feel there is.
Zechariah 3:1
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.

1 Chronicles 21:1
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

1 Kings 11:14
The Lord stirred up an adversary - A satan,
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Are you saying that the Satan of Job has no real life counterpart?
Other books of the OT seem to feel there is.
Zechariah 3:1
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.

1 Chronicles 21:1
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

1 Kings 11:14
The Lord stirred up an adversary - A satan,

You make a good point. But I still see Satan as maybe being symbolic even in these examples
For one thing, Zechariah was mostly a symbolic book. In 1 Chronicles, David is seen being tempted to take a census after God didn't want him to.

I should say that I am just leaning toward the idea that Satan is symbolic, that I am not 100% (or even 50%) sure of that. It's just an idea I've been exploring.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You make a good point. But I still see Satan as maybe being symbolic even in these examples
For one thing, Zechariah was mostly a symbolic book. In 1 Chronicles, David is seen being tempted to take a census after God didn't want him to.

I should say that I am just leaning toward the idea that Satan is symbolic, that I am not 100% (or even 50%) sure of that. It's just an idea I've been exploring.
Fair enough.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So...we are making discussion as if there would be nothing greater than human life?
Nothing above our existence here on this earth?

I believe in Something greater than myself.
I believe in spiritual life....and continuance after my last breath.

So then....dealing with Something greater would lean to consideration.
Life on Their terms.

And I don't think the next life is without conflict.
I have stories of serious consideration.

So then again....
Lines drawn....and whose side are you on?

And the most effective tool would be truth.
The most destructive tool....deception.

So then once more.....here we are.
 
It falls under being mistaken. The child got sick. It would not have been uncommon to attribute a sudden illness to the hand of God.

I see. So common sense and experience if the realities of the world we live in are applicable when convenient? I don't think it was God either, but that is meaningless.
You made the claim God did not kill anybody. Then maybe some who deserved it. So when I said either he did or the Bible is wrong there was no fallacy. The Bible clearly attributes a number of deaths as the direct result of God's actions or by his command.

You don't get to then come back and tell me well the Bible isn't necessarily completely true and how odd the false parts happen to include things you don't like.

Saying it is a mistake is a Pandora's Box the Church learned a long time ago not ot go anywhere near. If that is a mistake then what else is? Is it because it seems unreasonable God would do this and reasonable that a newborn would not survive? If that is the standard how reasonable is it that God would allow himself to be crucified and die so he could forgive mankind?


I don't think God is teaching people this at all.
Blessed be the LORD my strength which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psm 144

For he said, Because the LORD has sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exd 17:16

He may teach peace and thou shall not murder, but war is also on the list.



You are assuming that the Bible is literal, and that what the Bible said about God is actually true. However, do you have any evidence of this? Of course you don't because if you did, you would be the first to be able to prove that God existed.
:thud:Its like hearing someone say I am an atheist because I know the Bible to be true


I know the Bible is not literal, at least parts. Just curious how you remain a Christian if you have nothing to reference what being a Christian is?

It is much more probable that the people writing the Bible made observations and attributed them to God for political reasons, and because that is what they saw God as.
I bet your a lot of fun at Bible study

Actually, in the OT, there was no Satan, there was no idea of hell, or that a fallen angel would drag anyone down there. In fact, that isn't present in the Bible at all. The concept of hell and Satan were something that was created after the fact, and then these ideas, being in the heads of those who were interpreting scripture, were seen in the scripture as well.

You started out wrong but finished right. There is another mention with David but this should be enough to make my point.

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.
The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" Zch 3:1-2

The most important of these are the Hebrew and Greek equivalents noticed above. These words are used in the general sense justified by their etymological significance. It is applied even to Yahweh Himself (Numbers 22:22, 32; compare 1 Samuel 29:4 2 Samuel 19:22 Psalm 109:6, etc.). The word "Satan" is used 24 times in the Old Testament. In Job (1:6) and Zechariah (3:1) it has the prefixed definite article. In all cases but one when the article is omitted it is used in a general sense. This one exception is 1 Chronicles 21:1 (compare 2 Samuel 24:1), where the word is generally conceded to be used as a proper name. Int. Standard Encyclopedia


This means at some point, someone (or someones) created the idea of Satan and then placed it into the Bible after the fact.
I am going to lean towards more of a evolution of an existing concept that took on a greater role as a means to avoid responsibility and create a means by which the Church had a purpose and could exert a degree of control over the population.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Satan got his way: there's evil in the world.

God didn't get his way: There's evil in the world.


In fact, Satan seems to have even corrupted god.
godvsatan.jpg

Am I right or am I right!

Actually, Satan is responsible in some measure for ALL the deaths since man's fall into sin. Thus, Jesus said regarding this wicked one, "That one was a manslayer when he began." (John 8:44) The rebellion Satan caused resulted in the just sentence of death upon Adam and his unborn offspring. (Romans 5:12)
I believe Satan acts like an evil crime leader, seeking to remain hidden so he can freely harm and mislead.
As to his success, the Bible clearly teaches Satan will soon be destroyed forever, along with all those following him. (Revelation 20:10,14) I leave it to you to decide whether that is victory for this evil spirit creature who has caused such harm to so many. (Revelation 12:9)
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Satan got his way: there's evil in the world.

God didn't get his way: There's evil in the world.


So sorry, but I find you completely wrong:

First off, God is One, Supreme, and has no equal or rival! There is thus no "devil" out there competing with him or trying to "get us."

"Satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

As to your claims about evil, I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

Chapter 74.

THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284

Q. E. D..

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Satan was translated from the Hebrew word meaning accuser or adversary. His role was just that an adversary. That part of Christian belief is correct. Where it becomes Christian is the belief he is Lucifer. He could be, but there is nothing to support that.
Satan actually wasn't translated from that Hebrew word for adversary. It was transliterated. The term is ha-satan. It was simply converted to English.
Maybe including all Gods, but the Christian God has remained pretty consistent. Can you give an example of what you mean?
Compare the idea of the God of Abraham and the God of Moses. For Abraham, God was a being who could sit down with a person at a table and chat. For Moses, God was a being who no one could gaze upon otherwise they would perish. That is a pretty big difference.

More recently, the classical view of God, that God is all powerful, and all loving, is one that has changed for many individuals. In fact, the change occurred primarily after the Holocaust. Because there is evil in the world, for many, the idea that God is all loving and all powerful simply can be reconciled with the idea of evil and suffering. This has led to the belief of a limited God, which is quite different from the classical view of God.
So as a Christian where does your understanding and knowledge concerning your faith come from? Because you just tossed the only known source out the window as having no credibility.
Why would the Bible being written by humans throw away it's credibility? I reject that idea.
Nobody said he killed for the joy it brought him.
That has nothing to do with being a serial killer.
To me

And no, it is not accepted that God killed anyone so yes, there is a lot of doubt.

is insistent denial because he did kill people
But you can't prove that God killed anyone. You may be insistent that God killed people; however, without evidence, there is reason to have doubt, and a lot of it.

You're taking the Bible as being 100% literal, and I think that is a mistake, as does many other Christians.
How would anyone know God if his nature is always changing?
God's nature isn't changing, the perception of God's nature is always changing.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I just assume that when someone freely does something, like create evil, they did so because they wanted it. :shrug:
That is assuming that God freely created evil, or intended evil. Which means that is assumes the idea of creation ex nihilo. That is a concept that I, as well as many other Christians reject. Even the Bible doesn't really support such an idea, as the creation story opens up with the world already being there and God simply separating that into different parts.

Or there is the option that God created chaos, which while can cause suffering and evil, but also is necessary to allow for creativity. In fact, Terence Fretheim has done quite a bit of work on this subject. And he in fact teaches these very ideas to Lutheran seminary students, at one of the most respected Lutheran Seminaries.
So There are two fellows that go by the name "Satan"?
No, there is one. There is the Christian entity of Satan. The satan in the OT is not a single person, but an adversary.
I just checked 17 versions of Job 1:6 and none used the term "ha-satan." Only "Satan." Moreover, the "ha" of "ha-Satan" means "the". Thus, "ha-satan" means "the satan."
(Source: Wikipedia)
That's probably because they are Christian translations. Looking at Jewish translations, the term is translated as adversary. The Hebrew also reflects this.
After what fact? Job was written before Christianity came into being. In any case, regardless of its use in the past, Christians today consider it to be his name (they don't refer to him as "the Satan.") And I believe this is the important issue, how Christianity today regards the words and deeds of the Bible. Do the majority of Christians regard the character in the Torah referred as ha-satan as Satan? Yes they do. This is why in the first chapter of Job he's referred to as ha-satan in the Torah, and as Satan in Christian Bibles. Same guy, just a different denotation.
While Job was written before Christianity, the idea of Satan was still placed in it after the fact. The Jewish interpretation of Job, as well as the term ha-satan in general, was of an adversary, and not some evil entity. It was only after the Christian idea of Satan developed that Christian interpreters began translating ha-satan as Satan. However, that was quite a bit after the fact.

And not all Christianity considers it to be the name of Satan. In fact, if you check the Harper Collins Study Bible, the New Oxford Study Bible, or basically any NRSV study Bible, the New Jerusalem Bible, and even the more conservative NIV, each one comes with a note that Satan actually comes from the Hebrew, ha-satan, which means adversary (or accuser) and is not an actual specific entity, but more of an office.

Seeing that studies continually show that only a minority accept Satan as an actual being, and that the majority accept Satan as a symbolic idea, it simply can not be stated that Christianity today sees Satan as an actual figure.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That is assuming that God freely created evil, or intended evil. Which means that is assumes the idea of creation ex nihilo.
In as much as he said he created evil, why wouldn't he have created it freely? Think some other entity made him do it? And why would evil need to be ex nihilo? Couldn't he have created it out of daffodils or some rare earth metal? Moreover, didn't he create the universe ex nihilo?

That is a concept that I, as well as many other Christians reject. Even the Bible doesn't really support such an idea, as the creation story opens up with the world already being there and God simply separating that into different parts.
Well Genesis 1:1 reads "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." And Strong's gives the definition of shamayim (שָׁמַיִם ), the Hebrew word translated into "heaven," as
a) visible heavens, sky

1) as abode of the stars

2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
b) Heaven (as the abode of God)
Or there is the option that God created chaos, which while can cause suffering and evil, but also is necessary to allow for creativity. In fact, Terence Fretheim has done quite a bit of work on this subject. And he in fact teaches these very ideas to Lutheran seminary students, at one of the most respected Lutheran Seminaries.
No, there is one. There is the Christian entity of Satan. The satan in the OT is not a single person, but an adversary.
And isn't "adversary" a singular noun, as opposed to the plural "adversaries"? In The Doctrine of Satan: I. In the Old testament, William Caldwell says,
. . .the book of Job is worthy of special examination, for its prologue mentions one of the "sons of God," or angels, called Satan or Adversary. Anything like a clear outline of Satan appears here for the first time in the Old Testament."
source
Emphasis added.​
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
In as much as he said he created evil, why wouldn't he have created it freely? Think some other entity made him do it? And why would evil need to be ex nihilo? Couldn't he have created it out of daffodils or some rare earth metal? Moreover, didn't he create the universe ex nihilo?
The idea of creation ex nihilo is not a given. As more Christians have begun accepting evolution, as the scientific explanations for the origins of the Universe, there has been a tendency for Christians to reject the idea of creation ex nihilo.

Also, the idea of evil is covered by the concept of chaos. Chaos, while it can be very good, also gives the potential for evil.
Well Genesis 1:1 reads "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." And Strong's gives the definition of shamayim (שָׁמַיִם ), the Hebrew word translated into "heaven," as
a) visible heavens, sky​
First, Strong's is not a very good source, just for future reference.

Second, Genesis 1:1 needs to be read with Genesis 2:2. To begin with though, the Hebrew for the beginning of this verse can also be translated to "when God began to create..." In fact, the grammar actually demands a reading more similar to this (that or In the beginning when God created). The idea of creation ex nihilo is dependent on the reading that you provided.

The actual grammar though suggests that there was a preexistent chaos, that needed to be ordered and separated. The reason being that the term beginning (re****) requires a dependent relationship. As in, it is the beginning of something.

The reading you provided instead displays a picture of something that has already been finished.

Verse 2 shows this preexistent chaos. The formless void of earth depicts chaos.

And isn't "adversary" a singular noun, as opposed to the plural "adversaries"? In The Doctrine of Satan: I. In the Old testament, William Caldwell says,
. . .the book of Job is worthy of special examination, for its prologue mentions one of the "sons of God," or angels, called Satan or Adversary. Anything like a clear outline of Satan appears here for the first time in the Old Testament."
source
Emphasis added.​
[/quote] The source you provided is a hundred years old. Probably not the most credible as the advances in Biblical scholarship have increased greatly. Again, more for future reference.

However, if you read past the part that you quoted, you will see that Caldwell continues: "But even here it is the Satan." He states that this means that what is being spoken about is a function, not an actual character personally adversed to good. More so, this adversary is still a servant of God.

Caldwell is actually backing up mostly what I have been saying.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Actually, Satan is responsible in some measure for ALL the deaths since man's fall into sin. Thus, Jesus said regarding this wicked one, "That one was a manslayer when he began." (John 8:44) The rebellion Satan caused resulted in the just sentence of death upon Adam and his unborn offspring. (Romans 5:12)
I believe Satan acts like an evil crime leader, seeking to remain hidden so he can freely harm and mislead.
As to his success, the Bible clearly teaches Satan will soon be destroyed forever, along with all those following him. (Revelation 20:10,14) I leave it to you to decide whether that is victory for this evil spirit creature who has caused such harm to so many. (Revelation 12:9)

I don't think so.
The Garden event was an experiment.
An alteration of the body and spirit of Man.
The 'test' ....as most people say it is....
Was simply to be sure that Man had become the creature that would risk life....
in exchange for the acquisition of knowledge.

We are that creature.

As for the rebellion lead by the Devil....
That was done in heaven.
The argument revolved around Man....who will serve who.

One third of heaven lost their positions for an argument over something that looks like ...you.
They want you dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their brothers for an argument over something that looks like...you.
They might not care.

On that much .....we agree.
 
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Satan actually wasn't translated from that Hebrew word for adversary. It was transliterated. The term is ha-satan. It was simply converted to English.

That is a big jump from isn't in the OT at all

Compare the idea of the God of Abraham and the God of Moses. For Abraham, God was a being who could sit down with a person at a table and chat. For Moses, God was a being who no one could gaze upon otherwise they would perish. That is a pretty big difference.
He sat with Moses and Abraham. Everybody else was treated the same. I would hardly call him a have a chat type God. He was on his way to rain fire down on two cities when he had that "chat" He has always been a strict God who demands submission and obedience. He rules through fear. It sounds like a battered spouse story. He is happiest when he is feared and she walks around thanking him for smacking her around.

More recently, the classical view of God, that God is all powerful, and all loving, is one that has changed for many individuals. In fact, the change occurred primarily after the Holocaust. Because there is evil in the world, for many, the idea that God is all loving and all powerful simply can be reconciled with the idea of evil and suffering. This has led to the belief of a limited God, which is quite different from the classical view of God.
Sorry, but the opinion of every Tom, Dick and Harry regarding how they want God to look like is meaningful when the issue is the God of the Bible. What you are telling me about is make your God mentality. Could be valid and I am not knocking it, just saying it doesn't fit in this scenario.

Why would the Bible being written by humans throw away it's credibility? I reject that idea.
What would be the difference between the Bible and a couple books I write about God, If God was not the source of either one? The whole religion falls apart if it is not at least inspired by God. Think about it.

That has nothing to do with being a serial killer.
Technically yes it has everything to do with a serial killer. There is an actual definition you know. So they are not confused with mass murderers or other nut jobs

But you can't prove that God killed anyone. You may be insistent that God killed people; however, without evidence, there is reason to have doubt, and a lot of it.
Remarkable. I am arguing with a person who says he believes in God and defends that belief by saying the Bible was written men and things attributed to God most likely either were natural occurrences or written for political reasons therefore the Bible isn't literal nor can it prove the existence of God and for frosting it is just plain wrong.

You're taking the Bible as being 100% literal, and I think that is a mistake, as does many other Christians.
Uhm that is because the verses I was referencing were intended to be read as literal. The believes those things actually happened. Other than because you would prefer for it not to be do have anything to support you claims?


God's nature isn't changing, the perception of God's nature is always changing.
I realize a lot can happen in 4 paragraphs, but scan up and read were you explained the two different personalities God showed to Moses and Abraham
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
That is a big jump from isn't in the OT at all
It isn't a big leap at all. I stated that Satan is not in the Bible. Satan being the Christian entity that is said to oppose God. The term ha-satan is in the Bible, but it refers to an adversary, more of an office than a specific character. Simply, it isn't Satan.
He sat with Moses and Abraham. Everybody else was treated the same. I would hardly call him a have a chat type God. He was on his way to rain fire down on two cities when he had that "chat" He has always been a strict God who demands submission and obedience. He rules through fear. It sounds like a battered spouse story. He is happiest when he is feared and she walks around thanking him for smacking her around.
God is not said to have sat with Moses. In fact, we are told that when Moses asked to see God, God told him that if he say the face of God, he would perish. Instead, Moses was instructed to call into a crevice, God covered his eyes, and walked by. When God called Moses out, he was simply able to see a glimpse of God's back side. That is no sitting with Moses. Huge difference, especially since God told Moses that if anyone saw God face to face, they would perish, but that was not true in the case for Abraham.

More so, you are only taking a very small look at what the Bible says about God. You are only taking the stories in which God is depicted as strict, and ignoring the rest. With the story of God and Abraham, God was anything but strict. God sat down with Abraham, and they conversed. Abraham was even able to convince God to change his mind. God was going to have Sodom inspected and see if there were any righteous. After their conversation, Abraham had God agreeing that if there were only but a few righteous individuals in there, God would spare the city. As in, God was being flexible.

Also, the idea that God rules for fear is a fallacy. Much of the Bible portrays God ruling through love. The story of Jonah is a great example of this. As in, the story ends with a statement from God saying that God loves everyone, including the wicked.

If you pick and choose only the stories that depict God as strict, and ruling with fear, you have to ignore a vast majority of the Bible.
Sorry, but the opinion of every Tom, Dick and Harry regarding how they want God to look like is meaningful when the issue is the God of the Bible. What you are telling me about is make your God mentality. Could be valid and I am not knocking it, just saying it doesn't fit in this scenario.
The fact is that we are limited in our knowledge in regards to God. Seeing that the Bible is written by humans, it is inevitably flawed. And since we can't actually study God physically, all we have are perceptions.

This isn't about making one's own God, it is simply the fact that we only have individual perceptions when it comes to God. There is no concrete evidence of God, and even less for a concrete definition of God.

As for the difference between the classical view of God, and a more modern view of God, that was in response to the theological problems regarding the classical view.
What would be the difference between the Bible and a couple books I write about God, If God was not the source of either one? The whole religion falls apart if it is not at least inspired by God. Think about it.
I have thought about, as have millions of others. The Bible is not a book simply about God. If that is what you break it down to, then I have to assume that you haven't really read the Bible.

Buddhism doesn't fall apart because it is largely non-theistic (I say largely because there are some strands that are theistic, and I don't want to ignore those). Humans compose those scriptures. And that is perfectly fine. Throughout much of history, the books of the Bible were accepted as being written by humans as well, and there was no problem with that. I don't see why there should be a problem.

In fact, much of my theological outlook, as well as my view on God, were not formed by the Bible, but by other theological works, including modern works.

The conclusion you come to simply is not logical, and really shows a lack of understanding when it comes to Christianity. Also, Christianity is not centered around just a belief in God. While that is at the basic core, most of the theological and philosophical ideas of Christianity deal with other matters.
Technically yes it has everything to do with a serial killer. There is an actual definition you know. So they are not confused with mass murderers or other nut jobs
I actually have a degree in criminal justice. I know what the definition of serial killer is. While some definitions may include the idea of psychological gratification. The FBI definition does not contain such an idea though, but says that the motivations could be for a variety of reasons such as anger or financial gain. If we take the stories about God killing seriously, the motivation is usually anger. So yes, serial killer would be the correct term.
Remarkable. I am arguing with a person who says he believes in God and defends that belief by saying the Bible was written men and things attributed to God most likely either were natural occurrences or written for political reasons therefore the Bible isn't literal nor can it prove the existence of God and for frosting it is just plain wrong.
I never defended my belief in God. You simply are making that up. I believe in God based on faith. I don't have to defend it, nor will I.

I also didn't say that the Bible was plain wrong, or isn't literal. I have been careful to make a distinction between the Bible and individual books. I have also been careful to say that the Bible contains a variety of different ideas. So I'm not saying the the Bible is wrong. I'm saying that parts of it are wrong. And I'm hardly the first Christian to do so.
Uhm that is because the verses I was referencing were intended to be read as literal. The believes those things actually happened. Other than because you would prefer for it not to be do have anything to support you claims?
Whether or not they are meant to be literal, does not mean that we have to take what they state at face value. Historians and scholars do not do this with any other text, why should we make the Bible a special case?

I'm not saying that what happened in that situation didn't happen. Yes, a child got sick and died. I'm simply not taking the entire story literally, as there is no reason to, as I know enough about ancient writings to know that it was common to attribute to a god certain events that couldn't be explained in other ways, or to attribute something to a god for political reasons.
I realize a lot can happen in 4 paragraphs, but scan up and read were you explained the two different personalities God showed to Moses and Abraham
And that actually shows exactly what I was saying. God's nature doesn't change, but perception does.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't think so.
The Garden event was an experiment.
An alteration of the body and spirit of Man.
The 'test' ....as most people say it is....
Was simply to be sure that Man had become the creature that would risk life....
in exchange for the acquisition of knowledge.

We are that creature.

As for the rebellion lead by the Devil....
That was done in heaven.
The argument revolved around Man....who will serve who.

One third of heaven lost their positions for an argument over something that looks like ...you.
They want you dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their brothers for an argument over something that looks like...you.
They might not care.

On that much .....we agree.

I do not believe that God requires man to risk life for knowledge. Jehovah is the source of all knowledge, as the Bible says at Proverbs 2:6; "For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment."
"So, if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him." (James 1:5) Jehovah is pleased to share knowledge and wisdom. We, as did Adam, have but to ask. Adam disobeyed God, grasping for what he had no right, independence from God's authority to determine what is good and what is not.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I do not believe that God requires man to risk life for knowledge. Jehovah is the source of all knowledge, as the Bible says at Proverbs 2:6; "For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment."
"So, if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him." (James 1:5) Jehovah is pleased to share knowledge and wisdom. We, as did Adam, have but to ask. Adam disobeyed God, grasping for what he had no right, independence from God's authority to determine what is good and what is not.
Then why have so many Christians, specifically those buying into creationism, been untouched by his wisdom? Is it that they're using the right approach or not asking the right question?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I do not believe that God requires man to risk life for knowledge. Jehovah is the source of all knowledge, as the Bible says at Proverbs 2:6; "For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment."
"So, if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him." (James 1:5) Jehovah is pleased to share knowledge and wisdom. We, as did Adam, have but to ask. Adam disobeyed God, grasping for what he had no right, independence from God's authority to determine what is good and what is not.

Wisdom and knowledge are not the same thing.

The body was made to learn.
It won't do anything else.

Man as a species on Day Six was behaving too much like an animal.
With ability to.... go forth be fruitful.....multiply...dominate all things.....
our numbers would have overrun the planet before the spiritual qualities gel.

So the Garden was made and a specimen chosen.
Alteration performed.
Eve is a clone.....she had no navel.

The 'test' was performed....
Man as a creature curious beyond the pending death?

Yeah.

The specimens were then released into the environment.

Did they see it differently?.....yeah.
That's how Genesis...as a story took hold.
 
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