Godless and Amoral Children

[LuisDantas]

Have you ever had a chance to observe children who have no concept of god (especially fear of god and hell) and also who are not forced to be moral.If so in what ways they were different than other children and when they grown up different from other adults?

Difficult question. It is usually very difficult to know for certain that a child has not heard of the concept of god. And I just don't know how to parse this statement about "being forced to be moral". Morals usually can't be forced.

 

[LuisDantas]

No problem....I prefer being at home.
(It's an interesting universe.)

To be fair, I rarely leave it either.

 

[suncowiam]

Have you ever had a chance to observe children who have no concept of god (especially fear of god and hell) and also who are not forced to be moral.If so in what ways they were different than other children and when they grown up different from other adults?

I am that child.

The first thing I remembered as a child was being on a boat escaping oppression in Vietnam since my father sided with US in the war. I was a boat refugee travelling South Asia for 1-2 years before arriving in SF. Went through pirates in thailand. Stayed in a refugee camp in Taiwan. Mom picking through my hair for lice. Stayed in Singapore before US accepted our sponsorship.

We ended with my uncle in the south bay of the California bay area. Typical immigrant family with a large number of people in one house.

Let's just say much of my early life was based more on surviving.

Concerning religion, my parents were buddhists but barely ever practiced and they did not teach me any religious concepts. I frankly never experienced any religion until high school when my religious friends invited me to their church. I tried more for the social aspect because I was lonely and wanted a girl friend. They kept on telling me "lots of cute girls, dude." Well, I still didn't believe in God and so I stopped going and considered at that point that I was either athiest or agnostic. My college experience in engineering convinced that I'm an athiest. My schools and cities were very secular. I never remembered being forced to do anything religious.

I have no felonies, no misdeamenors. Used to do recreational drugs but stopped because I have a family now. Never cheated on my wife. I've lied and I've been truthful. I stoled at a younger age like candy and toys. But I stopped. I hit my first girlfriend but I stopped knowing how wrong that was. But it's about context. I have money now because I work hard for it. I would steal and lie only in the more extreme hypothetical situations like trying to save my kids lives.

I consider myself very happy and moderately successful in my profession. I'm not materialistic but I do have certain luxuries because I believe in enjoying the fruits of my success.

I advocate personal freedom so if my kids were to be gay I would accept it or if they wanted religion in their lives, I would accept that too.

Hoped that helped.

 

[Sees]

My children are not taught any specific belief about the Gods, lightly taught some simple practices and prayers that can be performed, heavily taught moral principles and that they are supposed to set the example for others. I get tons of compliments and questions on how it's done.

 

[BSM1]

My children are not taught any specific belief about the Gods, lightly taught some simple practices and prayers that can be performed, heavily taught moral principles and that they are supposed to set the example for others. I get tons of compliments and questions on how it's done.

Same here. I made a point that my children remained 'churchless' but not Godless. As they matured they were able to make their own choices.

 

[outhouse]

I asked mine if she see's a grey bearded man up there in the clouds that listens to prayers and she said no.

Asked if he was just hiding up there, Nope was the reply.


I want her to have an open mind, and I don't want to plant any seed's that something that doesn't exist, may help her one day in her hour of need. Life is to short for things not there.

I asked her, if tornado is coming does a god move it out of the way? Nope daddy, nothing steers a tornado.

We viewed film footage of the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people, and asked her if god did that, Nope no one did it daddy.


I would rather have her accept reality for what it is, so she understands her decision effect her life more then wishful thinking and superstition.


And if one day she wants to have faith, she does have the freedom to follow her own dreams.

 

[columbus]

I am that child.

The first thing I remembered as a child was being on a boat escaping oppression in Vietnam since my father sided with US in the war. I was a boat refugee travelling South Asia for 1-2 years before arriving in SF. Went through pirates in thailand. Stayed in a refugee camp in Taiwan. Mom picking through my hair for lice. Stayed in Singapore before US accepted our sponsorship.

We ended with my uncle in the south bay of the California bay area. Typical immigrant family with a large number of people in one house.

Let's just say much of my early life was based more on surviving.

Concerning religion, my parents were buddhists but barely ever practiced and they did not teach me any religious concepts. I frankly never experienced any religion until high school when my religious friends invited me to their church. I tried more for the social aspect because I was lonely and wanted a girl friend. They kept on telling me "lots of cute girls, dude." Well, I still didn't believe in God and so I stopped going and considered at that point that I was either athiest or agnostic. My college experience in engineering convinced that I'm an athiest. My schools and cities were very secular. I never remembered being forced to do anything religious.

I have no felonies, no misdeamenors. Used to do recreational drugs but stopped because I have a family now. Never cheated on my wife. I've lied and I've been truthful. I stoled at a younger age like candy and toys. But I stopped. I hit my first girlfriend but I stopped knowing how wrong that was. But it's about context. I have money now because I work hard for it. I would steal and lie only in the more extreme hypothetical situations like trying to save my kids lives.

I consider myself very happy and moderately successful in my profession. I'm not materialistic but I do have certain luxuries because I believe in enjoying the fruits of my success.

I advocate personal freedom so if my kids were to be gay I would accept it or if they wanted religion in their lives, I would accept that too.

Hoped that helped.

Fruballed for general excellence.

Tom

 

[suncowiam]

Fruballed for general excellence.

Tom

I'm new to this site, so I didn't understand what Fruballed meant.

I did a search on google, and it led me back to this site. LOL!

Thanks man.

 

[dave_]

Your talking about parental ignorance here, which has nothing to do with religion or lack of it.

Not necessarily parental ignorance.Some people might want to have amoral children.I think i've seen people like that who gives their children lots of freedom but do care about them.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not necessarily parental ignorance.Some people might want to have amoral children.I think i've seen people like that who gives their children lots of freedom but do care about them.

I have seen plenty of inept parents who created amoral children, but why would they have that as a goal?

 

[dave_]

I have seen plenty of inept parents who created amoral children, but why would they have that as a goal?

I think it is because they are themselves amoral.Amorality isn't necessarily a bad thing.I am not talking about criminals but i've known some amoral people who are overall great people.I guess noone can be completely amoral but those people i knew had a rather shallow morality.I am impressed by their level of individuality and personel freedom.

 

[suncowiam]

Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. They build this from their experiences. Certain things are taught and accepted. Certain things are innate and drawn from emotions like happiness, fear, jealousy, anger. Survival trumps all... What would one do to feed himself if he hasn't had food in days?

Its just misleading to say amoral. This is a very subjective term:
Lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.
"an amoral attitude to sex"

If my parents and the world kept on suggesting to me that all my sins will lead me to hell, well I can't tell you positively that I would be an athiest today. But I do have a sense of right and wrong. It just happens to be different or less restrictive from yours.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think it is because they are themselves amoral.Amorality isn't necessarily a bad thing.I am not talking about criminals but i've known some amoral people who are overall great people.I guess noone can be completely amoral but those people i knew had a rather shallow morality.I am impressed by their level of individuality and personel freedom.

What is your understanding of morality? It seems to me that an amoral person is by definition a failed person.

 

[suncowiam]

I think it is because they are themselves amoral.Amorality isn't necessarily a bad thing.I am not talking about criminals but i've known some amoral people who are overall great people.I guess noone can be completely amoral but those people i knew had a rather shallow morality.I am impressed by their level of individuality and personel freedom.

As Luis was noting, maybe our definition of amorality is not in agreement.

Concerning criminals, do you think there could be a difference in morality in criminals that live in very poor areas and then in very rich areas? One might believe they are justified to commit crimes. The other might know that it is completely wrong to commit crimes but still do it. Statistically, there are more crimes in high poverty areas. Why is that?

Thats why context is very important.

Now excuse me here if my understanding of certain Christian sins are not correct... I agree with the Ten Commandments. Generally, its wrong to do those things. But the Commandments do not consider context or the level punishment in respect to a context. Maybe the Bible does but of course I have very little understanding there. This is why laws consider context and intent to derive the punishment. Well, at least in US.

Take murder for example. Murder is wrong, definitely, but our laws have different punishments for different intents. Take three categories of punishment: first degree (premeditated), second degree (unplanned), justifiable homicide. All are the same acts but each has a different context. Unplanned murders can fall into a vehicle accidents even drunk driving. Justifiable homicides are given to those that are defending themselves from harm and usually has no punishment.

 

[Valjean]

Morality is an internalized psychological trait, not a fear based inhibition. True, you may inhibit a behavior by instilling a fear of consequences, but this is not morality.

Reward and punishment can teach lab rats to perform or refrain from certain behaviors, as well, but I wouldn't call that morality. The rats have not developed a conscience.

 

[Alceste]

I've been a teacher and a nanny on the west coast, and most of the kids I've worked with have been "godless", unchurched, whatever you want to call it. A majority were not taught moral principles by fear of punishment. It's more common in my community to talk through behaviour problems. Eg. "How would you feel if someone did that to you?" Punishment is usually mildly irritating, like the removal of privileges (no tv for a week), not fearsome, like violence.

The result? Really great kids. They proudly wear pink T-shirts to speak out against bullying one day a year. Even the boys. They're sensitive, creative, confident, curious, sociable, sober, non-violent and happy.

 

[suncowiam]

Morality is an internalized psychological trait, not a fear based inhibition. True, you may inhibit a behavior by instilling a fear of consequences, but this is not morality.

Reward and punishment can teach lab rats to perform or refrain from certain behaviors, as well, but I wouldn't call that morality. The rats have not developed a conscience.

I'm just going with the textbook definition of morality which doesn't draw on a level of consciousness but possibly assumes it if one had to further define right, wrong, good, bad:

Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

 

[suncowiam]

I've been a teacher and a nanny on the west coast, and most of the kids I've worked with have been "godless", unchurched, whatever you want to call it. A majority were not taught moral principles by fear of punishment. It's more common in my community to talk through behaviour problems. Eg. "How would you feel if someone did that to you?" Punishment is usually mildly irritating, like the removal of privileges (no tv for a week), not fearsome, like violence.

The result? Really great kids. They proudly wear pink T-shirts to speak out against bullying one day a year. Even the boys. They're sensitive, creative, confident, curious, sociable, sober, non-violent and happy.

I think you nailed it with the golden rule:
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

This is my personal mantra if I had to debate with myself.

 

[dave_]

I think morality is a gut feeling.Without this gut feeling morality is reduced to intellectual reasoning and you can convince such a person to commit a crime easily.Beacuse it is shallow.But this gut feeling is related to some form of fear.For example hell , social exclusion etc.This gut feeling is sth that makes you weak , vomit and makes you uncapable of doing sth wrong.I used to have this gut feeling perhaps more than most of the people.But for some time i had a socially isolated life so i am not afraid of exclusion and i tried to get more fearless.It was really hard for me to kill living things but i began hunting and at first this gut feeling came.I thought about death and partially accepted it so people cant hurt me anymore.Over time as the things i fear lessened that gut feeling slowly diminished.Now looking back i changed so dramatically.Now i only believe in power and fun.Big fish eats the small fish.Sometimes i feel a kind of madness like i can do anything my limits expand but still very limited.Still i have fears.So i wondered what if someone since birth is not thought about fear how limitless they would be.

 

[sojourner]

Maybe if you get out more?

Sorry, too tempting...

But... if I go out, the Evil Ball in the Sky will Get Me!