God's Attitude Toward Homosexuality

[columbus]

Fair enough.
Why did he choose to be straight? So as to have four children?

He didn't choose anything of the sort.

What he chose was to attempt to have a normal life, which then required getting married to a woman and having children. The marriage itself was a disaster. It left a lot of scars on everyone involved.

One of the unintended side effects of homophobia is people entering into disastrous relationships due to dysfunction and social pressures. You might be surprised by how many divorces and abortions and badly raised children result from homophobia.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You were saying that anyone who felt repulsion at the thought of gay sex was a form of denial, that you are secretly hiding gay desires from yourself. This is nonsense. The truth is that the majority of people are straight, and the majority of THOSE are completely straight, meaning they have no gay inclinations at all, that they couldn't get turned on by a member of the same sex if you paid them. And there is a significant number of THOSE who are actually REPELLED by the thought of having sex with the same sex. This is not denial. This is just part of being heterosexual. It is bigoted to imply otherwise.

Repulsion at homosexuality isn't a defining trait of heterosexuality. Get real. A lot of those who do have strong negative feelings about it are self-hating closet cases. It's the whole "the lady doth protest too much" thing and is well-known.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Some of us who are bisexual have chosen, for whatever reasons, to live as heterosexuals. We are perhaps the only people who truly do have a choice which direction we go. However, because we ARE attracted to the same sex, there are situations which make us uncomfortable, such as same sex romantic situations in movies, someone of the same sex flirting with us, etc. I even have problems with other women who sometimes dress provocatively (yes, I'm sympathetic to men who complain about this, obviously)--they don't understand that there's a line between dressing attractively and dressing sexy. So I can *choose* to only date men, only kiss men, only marry a man, but to my discomfort I'm still going to react to the advances of other women.

Yes, I realize that there's bisexuals who have chosen to repress the homosexual aspect of their sexuality because they have internalized the homophobia of their culture and/or religion. What else is new? I personally find it disturbing when people blame others for how they respond to their looks. It's not the woman's fault that you aren't comfortable with yourself. How you respond is not her responsibility.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

He didn't choose anything of the sort.

What he chose was to attempt to have a normal life, which then required getting married to a woman and having children. The marriage itself was a disaster. It left a lot of scars on everyone involved.

One of the unintended side effects of homophobia is people entering into disastrous relationships due to dysfunction and social pressures. You might be surprised by how many divorces and abortions and badly raised children result from homophobia.
Tom

I don't think you realize what you said in the first part of your remarks.
(Sic) "What he chose was to attempt to have a normal life...."

I think the first presumption heterophobics and christophobics make in discussions such as this is to imagine people who believe in the Bible must necessarily be afraid of homosexuals.

That's a false term made prevalent by a people and an agenda that insist on being tolerated for being intolerant of Christians and anyone that doesn't agree Homosexuality is perfectly normal, OK, and above criticism.

I'm not afraid of homosexuals. Too bad they're afraid of us.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

heterophobics and christophobics

Nice persecution complex but there no such thing. You're not exactly a minority and we can't really avoid you in society. There are LGBT Christians, as well.

Too bad they're afraid of us.

It's not fear.

I wonder why some LGBT people dislike Christianity. Hmm. What a huge mystery.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Nice persecution complex but there no such thing. You're not exactly a minority and we can't really avoid you in society. There are LGBT Christians, as well.

There's no such thing as Homophobic. That's the first public example of persecution complex that was given a descriptive label to encapsulate the *homosexuals insecurity.

*edited to add "homosexuals" to assist saladphobe's comprehension.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There's no such thing as Homophobic. That's the first public example of persecution complex that was given a descriptive label to encapsulate the insecurity.

Speak plain English. That second sentence is just meaningless word salad.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Speak plain English. That second sentence is just meaningless word salad.

I not only speak plain English I write it also.
Condescending remarks don't work with me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I not only speak plain English I write it also.
Condescending remarks don't work with me.

Do you live in fairy tale land where gay people aren't discriminated against and all vestiges of prejudice don't exist anymore? I guess you're one of those types who thinks racism doesn't exist anymore, either.

I'm not going to nitpick with you over semantics. It's as stupid as saying the term anti-Semitism covers Arabs and other Semitic people and so shouldn't be used to refer to prejudice against Jews. Homophobia is the accepted and widely used term for anti-gay prejudice and many who have that problem do seem to have an irrational phobia about homosexuality.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Do you live in fairy tale land where gay people aren't discriminated against and all vestiages of prejudice don't exist anymore? I guess you're one of those types who thinks racism doesn't exist anymore, either.

I'm not going to nitpick with you over semantics. It's as stupid as saying the term anti-Semitism covers Arabs and other Semitic people and so shouldn't be used to refer to prejudice against Jews. Homophobia is the accepted and widely used term for anti-gay prejudice and many who have that problem do seem to have an irrational phobia about homosexuality.

I am not the one.
I'm not going to give you the opportunity to demonstrate your loathing and contempt for straights and Christians. Your screed there speaks volumes as to your state of mind.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am not the one.
I'm not going to give you the opportunity to demonstrate your loathing and contempt for straights and Christians. Your screed there speaks volumes as to your state of mind.

You have some bizarre assumptions about me and even a weird idea of what a "screed" is. I don't hate Christians or straights. Wtf are you talking about? You don't even know what my sexual orientation is.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

One must not harm anyone unless they harm you first.

Are you under the impression that homosexuals harm others more than heterosexuals? They don't. It's true that men have problems with aggression, but that would be both heterosexual men as well as homosexual men. And even there we are just talking statistics. There are men who are not aggressive as well as women who are. But if you are going to be honest about things, there are a great many more aggressive heterosexual men than there are aggressive homosexual men. Shall we therefore be afraid of heterosexuality?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

My very gay partner has four children and a flock of grandkids.
Tom

Just curious whether your partner adopted or whether he used scientific intervention to have children, since gay sex does not produce children.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, I realize that there's bisexuals who have chosen to repress the homosexual aspect of their sexuality because they have internalized the homophobia of their culture and/or religion. What else is new? I personally find it disturbing when people blame others for how they respond to their looks. It's not the woman's fault that you aren't comfortable with yourself. How you respond is not her responsibility.

So you think that in order to not be homophobic I have to give in to my urges? Ridiculous. I'm not a dog that I have to do whatever my instincts beg of me. For whatever it's worth, I don't do it with whatever men float my boat either. In my morality, sex is a protected kind of thing for within marriage between a man and a woman. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh." That's the ideal, no matter how often we fall short of it.

There is no halo over my head, and I'm not trying to force my morality on other people. I'm just saying this is what I choose to live by. I've been divorced a long time now, and celibate. That's my choice, and I think it's pretty judgmental of you to indicate that I have to jump in bed in order to "no repress my sexuality." My sexuality is very unrepressed, thank you very much. Not only am I acutely aware of my desires, but I channel them into my art, my music, my poetry and writing... It's called sublimation and its considered extremely healthy by psychological professionals.

So get out of the therapists chair because you are doing a terrible job.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you think that in order to not be homophobic I have to give in to my urges? Ridiculous. I'm not a dog that I have to do whatever my instincts beg of me. For whatever it's worth, I don't do it with whatever men float my boat either. In my morality, sex is a protected kind of thing for within marriage between a man and a woman. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh." That's the ideal, no matter how often we fall short of it.

There is no halo over my head, and I'm not trying to force my morality on other people. I'm just saying this is what I choose to live by. I've been divorced a long time now, and celibate. That's my choice, and I think it's pretty judgmental of you to indicate that I have to jump in bed in order to "no repress my sexuality." My sexuality is very unrepressed, thank you very much. Not only am I acutely aware of my desires, but I channel them into my art, my music, my poetry and writing... It's called sublimation and its considered extremely healthy by psychological professionals.

So get out of the therapists chair because you are doing a terrible job.

You're the one who thinks homosexuality is a sin and you said you feel uncomfortable when you see a woman you find attractive, when gay couples express themselves in films and if a woman hits on you. That sounds like repression to me. Do those same things make you uncomfortable if they're heterosexual? Do you feel uncomfortable when you're attracted to a man?

No one said you should jump into bed with anyone. But if you developed feelings for another woman and the feelings are mutual, but you cut it off just because she's a woman, that is repressing your gay side.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You're the one who thinks homosexuality is a sin and you said you feel uncomfortable when you see a woman you find attractive, when gay couples express themselves in films and if a woman hits on you. That sounds like repression to me. Do those same things make you uncomfortable if they're heterosexual? Do you feel uncomfortable when you're attracted to a man?

No one said you should jump into bed with anyone. But if you developed feelings for another woman and the feelings are mutual, but you cut it off just because she's a woman, that is repressing your gay side.

To a lesser degree it makes me uncomfortable to see things in movies that are heterosexual. For example, it does not make me feel uncomfortable to see a couple kissing, but I get resentful if I'm shown a couple making love -- I didn't ask for that, and generally speaking I close my eyes or flip the channel for a minute. As for provocative clothing, men don't have the same issues with needing to be as physically attractive as women do. Actually you have bozo men who will even show up for dates in old T-shirts and jeans that have holes in them because they feel no need to look attractive for the opposite sex. Men need to show status compared to other men in the room -- it's a completely different game.

I actually do have mutual feelings/attraction for another woman, and we both have traditional morals. We have left it at being best friends, and we have no regrets. Honestly, if we became lovers, it would probably mess things up -- we'd eventually fight and break up. By leaving it nonsexual, we have remained lifelong best friends -- a much better option. Today we get together and talk about our grandkids and our ex-husbands and reminisce about our high school days. It's really lovely. Why screw it up by adding a powerful vector like sex.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

To a lesser degree it makes me uncomfortable to see things in movies that are heterosexual. For example, it does not make me feel uncomfortable to see a couple kissing, but I get resentful if I'm shown a couple making love -- I didn't ask for that, and generally speaking I close my eyes or flip the channel for a minute. As for provocative clothing, men don't have the same issues with needing to be as physically attractive as women do. Actually you have bozo men who will even show up for dates in old T-shirts and jeans that have holes in them because they feel no need to look attractive for the opposite sex. Men need to show status compared to other men in the room -- it's a completely different game.

I actually do have mutual feelings/attraction for another woman, and we both have traditional morals. We have left it at being best friends, and we have no regrets. Honestly, if we became lovers, it would probably mess things up -- we'd eventually fight and break up. By leaving it nonsexual, we have remained lifelong best friends -- a much better option. Today we get together and talk about our grandkids and our ex-husbands and reminisce about our high school days. It's really lovely. Why screw it up by adding a powerful vector like sex.

Fair enough

 

[IndigoChild5559]

He didn't choose anything of the sort.

What he chose was to attempt to have a normal life, which then required getting married to a woman and having children. The marriage itself was a disaster. It left a lot of scars on everyone involved.

One of the unintended side effects of homophobia is people entering into disastrous relationships due to dysfunction and social pressures. You might be surprised by how many divorces and abortions and badly raised children result from homophobia.
Tom

This has kind of been the course of action for gays down through history, even in societies where homosexuality is not only condoned, but considered the superior way, such as in Greece. Having a boy lover was the ideal, but a man still needed a wife to have children to succeed him. Somehow gays always made it work. Marriage is ALWAYS hard, even if you are marrying someone you are attracted to. You are NOT always attracted to them all the time, and it can get kind of touchy when one of you wants it and the other goes for years without wanting it.

 

[columbus]

Just curious whether your partner adopted or whether he used scientific intervention to have children, since gay sex does not produce children.

When he was 19 he married a woman. He believed that would "straighten" him out. Which he desperately wanted, he didn't want to be queer.
I did something similar.

The intense pressure to be "normal" is rather overwhelming for a teen.
And, speaking as a guy, when you're young it doesn't take much of anything to get it up. Which makes it easy to remain in denial and the closet.
It's complex and varies hugely with individuals.
But I am telling you. Almost no queers choose being queer. Nothing is impossible when it comes to human psychology, but believing that we queers chose it is painfully ignorant.
Tom

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When he was 19 he married a woman. He believed that would "straighten" him out. Which he desperately wanted, he didn't want to be queer.

I'm terribly sorry I was so harsh. This feeling I very much understand.