God's Attitude Toward Homosexuality

[loganonekenobi]

Some will. Some will run and hide. I grew up in a different time and opposed marriage equality myself in the past. Eventually I realized That was my prejudiced upbringing speaking and not logic. By the time it got on the ballot in my state I knew better than I had in the past. People can learn. You may not change people's minds in front of you, but you might plant the seed that leads to a change.

you give an old man hope. Thank you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

you give an old man hope. Thank you.

I don't think you will change the minds of the truly homophobic. Those people are struggling with their own demons. They tend to be the ones that call homosexuality a choice. And for them it probably is. I think that most homophobes are not afraid of homosexuals, they are afraid of being homosexual.

But there are many that were merely brought up in a biased manner and many of them can and do change. Do not be disappointed when you cannot convince this that call homosexuality a choice. Those people have merely chosen to be straight

 

[columbus]

No, they did not. But we now have an understanding that these things fall well short of the ideal, and are moving as a species away from them as part of Marriage.

I cannot help but notice that you skipped right over the bulk of my post

And gay marriage is not going in the opposite direction.

I don't really care what scripture says about marriage. Marriage should be a mutually supportive, consensual, committed, exclusive, and permanent relationship between adults.

I see no reason to limit that to breeding pairs, as though humans are farm animals.
Marriage equality does NOT go in "the opposite direction", whatever that might mean.
Tom

What we're moving away from is defining marriage as a socially sanctioned breeding pair.
Is that what you are objecting to? Because it doesn't impact people who also what to be part of a breeding pair at all.
Tom

 

[Skwim]

I don't think you will change the minds of the truly homophobic. Those people are struggling with their own demons. They tend to be the ones that call homosexuality a choice. And for them it probably is. I think that most homophobes are not afraid of homosexuals, they are afraid of being homosexual.

But there are many that were merely brought up in a biased manner and many of them can and do change. Do not be disappointed when you cannot convince this that call homosexuality a choice. Those people have merely chosen to be straight

Just to clear here, unlike most phobias, the meaning of "homophobia" has taken on a meaning beyond the common definition of "phobia," which is,

pho·bi·a
/ˈfōbēə/
noun: phobia; plural noun: phobias

an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.​

It has come to also mean "dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people,"

ho·mo·pho·bi·a
/ˌhōməˈfōbēə/
noun
noun: homophobia

dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
​

which, in fact, has become its common usage.

.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just to clear here, unlike most phobias, the meaning of "homophobia" has taken on a meaning beyond the common definition of "phobia," which is,

pho·bi·a
/ˈfōbēə/
noun: phobia; plural noun: phobias

an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.​

It has come to also mean "dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people,"

ho·mo·pho·bi·a
/ˌhōməˈfōbēə/
noun
noun: homophobia

dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
​

which, in fact, has become its common usage.

.

I know the etymology, but my quip arose as a response to homophobes that claim that they are not afraid of homosexuals.

 

[Jumi]

At that time to put a man, as the dominant one in the relationship, in the submissive role was wrong. In Greek society, boys, slaves and women were fine for sex, since they were not social equals. A free man and another free man were both dominant, so one could not be put in a submissive role. Also, the Hebrews were supposed to stand out from others, and other religions saw homosexual sex as okay, as in fertility cults, so they had to separate themselves from that behavior.

True, in the context of the originals it has quite a different meaning than today. But the literalist, both theistic and atheistic, will read it like it was written yesterday.

 

[Subduction Zone]

True, in the context of the originals it has quite a different meaning than today. But the literalist, both theistic and atheistic, will read it like it was written yesterday.

Atheists tend to interpret the Bible literally to attack literalists that use the Bible for their beliefs. We are aware that not all Christians abuse the Bible to attack homosexuals. Think of it as "Bible Judo" one uses the Bible against those that interpret it literally to show why that is a bad idea.

 

[Jumi]

Atheists tend to interpret the Bible literally to attack literalists that use the Bible for their beliefs. We are aware that not all Christians abuse the Bible to attack homosexuals. Think of it as "Bible Judo" one uses the Bible against those that interpret it literally to show why that is a bad idea.

I understand why some people get drawn into the type of discussion and I've been guilty of it too sometimes because of how easy it is. You can always find an out in that type of match, because you can interpret it any way you like and if not you can change the rules to allow for it. It's more like modern tai chi with everyone doing their own little dance somewhere in the park. Nothing really happens, but everyone is developing their own dance without knowing why the originators developed it.

It would be more fruitful to bring up the historical contexts and discuss why these things were written the way they were, in my opinion.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think that children who naturally have a more amorphous sexuality (in other words, some people, but not everyone) will be drawn into a homosexual lifestyle who otherwise would have been perfectly happy marrying someone of the opposite sex and raising a family.

And if they're happy in the "homosexual lifestyle?"

Geez, that's not even first world problems. That's actively looking for a problem because one is jealous of people who have first world problems.

Also it's not like society helps in that regard to begin with. How many families are torn apart because unhappy gay (or even bisexual) people just can't stand being unhappily married anymore?
If anything your scenario looks like an upgrade.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I understand why some people get drawn into the type of discussion and I've been guilty of it too sometimes because of how easy it is. You can always find an out in that type of match, because you can interpret it any way you like and if not you can change the rules to allow for it. It's more like modern tai chi with everyone doing their own little dance somewhere in the park. Nothing really happens, but everyone is developing their own dance without knowing why the originators developed it.

It would be more fruitful to bring up the historical contexts and discuss why these things were written the way they were, in my opinion.

The problem is literalists think that God told people to write the Bible with the words that it has because they are right. They care nothing for history. One's only hope is to try to show them the self contradictory nature of the Bible if one approaches it from a literal viewpoint.

 

[Jumi]

The problem is literalists think that God told people to write the Bible with the words that it has because they are right. They care nothing for history. One's only hope is to try to show them the self contradictory nature of the Bible if one approaches it from a literal viewpoint.

One would hope that they would realize that literal readings make no sense and took a different read.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And if that's so, is that a bad thing? If the person spends the rest of their life happily married to someone they love either way, that's a positive outcome, right?

That's like asking, if a person can live just as happy a life as a blind person, who are you to say they shouldn't voluntarily give up their sight. Yikes. What flawed reasoning you have. There is a way our bodies are intended to be used, and its not gay sex. Gay sex is a fall back. Animals do it, i.e. when there is not enough of the opposite sex around. Human beings do it for a variety of reasons, all of which are a deviation from the norm. The idea is whenever possible to use our bodies in the way nature intends them. Look, my sexual orientation is not exactly the norm. This is something I deal with. I practice what I preach.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And having a choice is ..... bad? If this is the worse you have Im not seeing a problem. Im sure you will tell me of the horrors of having a choice.

I think having a choice is fine. I think being told that both choices are equal is just a lie.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

on a similar note, attraction is what it is. One can be attracted to the same gender, opposite, or some where in between. Unless there is real harm in letting people love who they are attracted to (such as pedophila) then I see no reason why any one should stop them.

What I'm saying is that when someone is sexually amorphous, they should be encouraged to go with the norm. I say don't lie to them that both ways are equal. THey aren't.

I am not saying that a gay should lie to themselves about being gay. I'm not saying go into conversion therapy or pray away the gay. I don't think that can be done. I'm strictly in this subthread speaking of those who have the capacity to either switch, or are to some degree bisexual.

 

[Jose Fly]

That's like asking, if a person can live just as happy a life as a blind person, who are you to say they shouldn't voluntarily give up their sight. Yikes. What flawed reasoning you have. There is a way our bodies are intended to be used, and its not gay sex. Gay sex is a fall back. Animals do it, i.e. when there is not enough of the opposite sex around. Human beings do it for a variety of reasons, all of which are a deviation from the norm. The idea is whenever possible to use our bodies in the way nature intends them. Look, my sexual orientation is not exactly the norm. This is something I deal with. I practice what I preach.

Then I suggest you resolve your own sexual issues before spreading hateful rhetoric about others.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Many of these diferences often come from marginalization and discrimination from the religious. "oh you had two mums" (awkward silence) "we'll pray for them and you". You get the idea? The studies are just begining but one thing is for sure, letting same sex couples marry did not,infact bring the gaypocolyps upon the countries that allowed it. oh and could you repost that link so i can read it. I cant find it in your previous posts

Oh please. Enough with the victim thing. Kids get victimized by all sorts of things. I got teased and bullied because I came from a highly religious home. For example, I couldn't go on Girl Scout camp outs because we kept the Sabbath. A million things set me apart as different. And then there was just my dweeby nerdish poetic personality, intellectual and sensitive. Classic set up for bullying. It really hurt me, but you don't see me going around blaming my adult problems on it. You can be fat, too tall, autistic, a stutterer, bad at sports, have buck teeth, be uncommonly smart, the list of things that kids get bullied for goes on and on.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And if they're happy in the "homosexual lifestyle?"

Geez, that's not even first world problems. That's actively looking for a problem because one is jealous of people who have first world problems.

Also it's not like society helps in that regard to begin with. How many families are torn apart because unhappy gay (or even bisexual) people just can't stand being unhappily married anymore?
If anything your scenario looks like an upgrade.

Look, I try not to force my morality on other people. I have gay friends, and I don't bring the issue up with them. If they bring the issue up with me, THEN I am honest with them about what I think. If I'm in a Torah study class where we all share, I will give my less than two cents worth. But it almost never comes up.

I have a very traditional morality. A man shall leave his mother and cleave unto his wife. That's what sex is for. It is protected from its own volatility within the protective commitment of the marriage between a man and a woman. That in turn gives children a safe and stable environment in which to grow and prosper.

I myself am bisexual, but I've never so much as kissed another woman. I have a long time friend from high school and we have a deep attraction for one another. We talked about it long ago, and decided that because of our morals that we would never act on it. Also, we were afraid that if we introduced sex, that we would eventually "break up" and ruin our friendship. We are still best friends these decades later. You can still hear the attraction in the way we say, "You look so beautiful in that dress." But we have something better. We will grow old together, chatting about our ex-husbands and our grandkids.

I chose to marry a man, and I don't regret it a bit, even though the marriage didn't work out. The marriage gave me two wonderful children. One is married with a daughter, and the other is engaged. What more could a person want in life?

Because I am single, I am celibate. It is difficult, but then marriage was difficult too. I've simply traded one set of problems for another. I've grown set in my ways, very independent -- I no longer would make a good wife. So essentially I will be single and celibate for the rest of my life. And believe it or not, I'm very happy this way. I sublimate my sexual energy into my poetry and my art and my counseling work, which is very healthy. Life is good.

So when I say that when I expect someone who is homosexual to be celibate, I am really not asking them to be any different than I am myself. They can have healthy, happy lives without sex, filled with love and meaning.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Then I suggest you resolve your own sexual issues before spreading hateful rhetoric about others.

I don't have any sexual "issues." My life is just fine. I'm happy, healthy, and have a life filled with love and meaning.

 

[SomeRandom]

Look, I try not to force my morality on other people. I have gay friends, and I don't bring the issue up with them. If they bring the issue up with me, THEN I am honest with them about what I think. If I'm in a Torah study class where we all share, I will give my less than two cents worth. But it almost never comes up.

I have a very traditional morality. A man shall leave his mother and cleave unto his wife. That's what sex is for. It is protected from its own volatility within the protective commitment of the marriage between a man and a woman. That in turn gives children a safe and stable environment in which to grow and prosper.

I myself am bisexual, but I've never so much as kissed another woman. I have a long time friend from high school and we have a deep attraction for one another. We talked about it long ago, and decided that because of our morals that we would never act on it. Also, we were afraid that if we introduced sex, that we would eventually "break up" and ruin our friendship. We are still best friends these decades later. You can still hear the attraction in the way we say, "You look so beautiful in that dress." But we have something better. We will grow old together, chatting about our ex-husbands and our grandkids.

I chose to marry a man, and I don't regret it a bit, even though the marriage didn't work out. The marriage gave me two wonderful children. One is married with a daughter, and the other is engaged. What more could a person want in life?

Because I am single, I am celibate. It is difficult, but then marriage was difficult too. I've simply traded one set of problems for another. I've grown set in my ways, very independent -- I no longer would make a good wife. So essentially I will be single and celibate for the rest of my life. And believe it or not, I'm very happy this way. I sublimate my sexual energy into my poetry and my art and my counseling work, which is very healthy. Life is good.

So when I say that when I expect someone who is homosexual to be celibate, I am really not asking them to be any different than I am myself. They can have healthy, happy lives without sex, filled with love and meaning.

Yeah but that's what makes you happy. You can act as a "role model" if you so choose. But to expect other people to do the same is quite frankly arrogant.
You're not living their lives, it's not really any of your business. Unless they're a minor and live under your care. Even then, it's still their life.
I mean asking other people not to find potential happiness in a marriage to someone of the same sex is a little unfair. Just because you live that way doesn't mean it should be law. (Unless you didn't stand in the way of making SSM legal. Still what works for you doesn't work for everyone.)
That's not how society works, that's not even how life works. Just because you're happy being celibate doesn't mean other people will be happy. You can't speak for the rest of the world (see previous statement about arrogance.)
Just because you chose to marry the opposite sex and found happiness doesn't mean that works for everyone.
And unless you can give a rational, objective, logical reasoning (without any appeal to religion) then I really don't see why gay people should listen to your requirements for how to live their life.

You don't see the Jewish community demand that every store sell kosher meats. You don't see Muslim communities call for a legal ban on pork.
You don't see Hindu communities call for a legal ban on beef products.
So why is it that Christians think they're special and can dictate western law?
(That's not directed at you by the way. Just venting.)

 

[loganonekenobi]

Oh please. Enough with the victim thing. Kids get victimized by all sorts of things. I got teased and bullied because I came from a highly religious home. For example, I couldn't go on Girl Scout camp outs because we kept the Sabbath. A million things set me apart as different. And then there was just my dweeby nerdish poetic personality, intellectual and sensitive. Classic set up for bullying. It really hurt me, but you don't see me going around blaming my adult problems on it. You can be fat, too tall, autistic, a stutterer, bad at sports, have buck teeth, be uncommonly smart, the list of things that kids get bullied for goes on and on.

The point of my post is to show that discrimination is the real factor on why these kids might have problems in life. The fact that they have 2 moms is not the factor. Being bullied as a kid for all of those other issues often goes away once every one is grown. It's not against the law to be fat (although i think it should be. I can prove the harm that does.) However, the discrimination of being homosexual never goes away mostly due to religion. In countries that accept homosexuality with both culture and law the rate of "adult" problems is not much more than that of the average person. On the other hand in countries that make laws against such people not only are there much increased mental problems but also increased violence against them. This goes beyond bullying in these cases.