IsmailaGodHasHeard
Well-Known Member
Hello Bob. I am afraid that I disagree with you.
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God's Hell
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
Hello Bob. I am afraid that I disagree with you.
IsmailaGodHasHeard
Well-Known Member
Bob Dixon
>implying
Go read the original texts. "Hell" doesn't appear in them.
javajo
Well-Known Member
You have an original? Wow.
Hell is Biblical doctrine, the original word is refering to a trash burning place near Jerusalam with a non-stop burning fire. The word is later on translated to Hell in other language versions. The concept is original.
Fairness is built on Law, not Grace. Grace is like a gift, you can grant a gift to whoever you like. It's God's sacrifice, so theoretically God can grant His Grace to whoever He wants. As for those who never heard of the gospel, just get back to His fair Law.
Bob Dixon
>implying
I don't, but they do exist.
Well, not the original originals. But the copies of them in the original language, yes.
Spirited
Bring about world peace
As all other things in the universe that God created, his law is not relative. Police officers do not care if you know that drinking and driving is illegal, they will still give you a fine and possibly put you in jail for the night as well.
No system of government or law of physics cares if you know it exists. You will still get crushed by the pressure of going too deep underwater whether you understand why or not. Likewise, it is not God's responsibility but your own to educate yourself on what is right and what is wrong. If we hadn't fallen away from God in the garden of Eden by acting out against his instruction, all of humanity would have been united around, and in accord with, God. Thus we would all grow up living by his heavenly law and it would become second nature. This would have occurred had Lucifer not gotten jealous and intervened.
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This.
Bob Dixon
>implying
Police officers and the Laws of Physics also aren't loving and merciful, and we're certainly not their children, so it's not a valid comparison.
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
How is it freewill if he knows our future actions though, I still don't understand.
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
If we found the Bibles as they originally were, would there be so many congregations in Christianity?
What does knowing someones actions have to do with controlling their actions. If you knew some nation in the Middle East was going to riot does that mean you have control over them or just that you know? Or are you saying god is controlling all our actions?
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Apparently, with omniscience, you will know everything that will happen before you even do it.
He knew that if he created the world with A we would be sinful creatures etc. He takes us to hell for being like that when he could've made us with B which we would not be sinful and everyone goes to heaven.
What is the point of Hell if God made us this way, knowing we'd be this way? What is the point of so-called Freewill at the same time?
Spirited
Bring about world peace
Why does God need to know all of our future actions at all? I don't believe that to be true in the slightest. When did this become a necessary attribute of the creator?
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Well the omniscience would be an issue for God not us. Does God have freewill if he already knows what he is going to do?
We would have freewill as long as God isn't controlling our actions even if he knew what we would do. It would be unjust for God to punish us if he is controlling our actions. Just like parents would punish their kid if they sneak out to go to some concert. If the parent knew what would happen it wouldn't change the need to punish. At the same time I'm not sure it would be right for the parent to have stopped the kid from going to the concert even if the knowledge and power to do so.
Whether or not he knows shouldn't matter but he certainly doesn't need to control every little thing.
Spirited
Bring about world peace
Presuming that God must know everything that we will do assumes that time is real. Time is not real in the same way that inches and centimeters are not real. They are a human perception that we ascribe to certain distances or collections of actions as we understand them.
God can know everything that's happening on the Earth in a given moment and infer from what we are doing what action it is that we are about to perform with his infinite knowledge of our capabilities. Even the past is only real because of actions. The ocean pushes sand over bones protecting them from deteriorating etc.. etc.. They don't just magically deteriorate over "time", time isn't real. Time is just a convenient way of describing things that have a tendency to happen consistently. This is also true of the sun rotating around the Earth. It doesn't rotate around the Earth exactly 365 times a year, which is why we have leap years.
Likewise, God didn't create time, he created events. He can be aware of all events that have occurred and all events that will occur and be omniscient, without any need to know what will happen in the future. Now, God predestined his desire for what humanity would become in the Bible, but as it can also be seen time and time again, people do not always succeed at achieving his will. Abraham screwed up the sacrifice of the doves, Noah's son screwed up by covering his nakedness, Judas betrayed Christ and Moses struck the rock twice. These are all perfect examples of freewill interfering with God's desires for what will happen. However, it can also be seen through the Bible that God never ceases to find people who he can work through and who have helped to realize God's ideal of creation.
Lucifer is another perfect example of freewill. God surely knew what Lucifer was doing, as he was doing it, but that doesn't mean that he knew that Lucifer would choose to disobey him before that point. It says in the Bible that we were crafted in God's image, to presume that we do not have free will is assume God does not either.
Bob Dixon
>implying
Yes; the dispute isn't about what the Bible says; it's about what it means.