God's Israel in the new testament who is it *Romans 9:6-8

[sojourner]

(Cont'd.)
What the OP tries to do is to take a (poorly-understood) passage that presents an ontological argument and turn it into some kind of cosmological truism. The whole basis of the passage under question (Rom. 9:6-8) is a consideration of God's sovereignty, not a "who's in and who's out" argument, specifically because election is not an election to privilege.

The OP suggests that our act of believing (in the bible) makes us automatically "the true Israel." I suggest that the passage under consideration calls us to an ontology of responsibility to bearing out that God is sovereign (which never entertains a question of "who's in and who's out"). Putting the passage into context, Paul follows with the question: "Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!" He drives his point home by quoting something God said to Moses: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." And Paul goes on: "So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's (sovereign) mercy." God calls us -- it's not we who buy our way in through "belief."

I would posit from the text in question that, given Paul's argument against privilege, and given Jesus' teaching against privilege, and knowing what I know about the Christian household and its sense of spiritual entitlement as far as "who's saved" and "who's not," that Christians stand in the same danger of forfeiting their election as did Israel from its election, simply by not letting God make a sovereign decision apart from what the Church might wish. Karma's a beeatch. I would caution the poster to rethink his position based on this text, because he's already asserted that the recognized Church has already forfeited its status. At any rate, the text under question certainly harms and does in no way support his thesis.

 

[3rdAngel]

(Cont'd.)......

To me these posts are simply eisegesis not exegesis and a lot of gobbdygoop, empty words and accusations that are not backed by evidence so do not really mean much to me. There is only truth in Gods Word. Our opinions do not really matter *ROMANS 3:4

GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)

There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

............

God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

Now let's look at the meaning of the name that God gave to his people. The name "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" God gave this name to his people and it means that they shall rule with God. Take a look at the following scriptures from REVELATION speaking of God's people.

REVELATION 1:5-6 [5], And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6], And HAS MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS TO GOD AND HIS FATHER; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

and again...

REVELATION 5:10 And HAVE MADE US TO OUR GOD KINGS AND PRIESTS; AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.

Peter speaking of God's people says it this way...

1 PETER 2:9-10 [9], But you [God's people] are a chosen generation, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD [KINGS AND PRIESTS], an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; [10], Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Sound familar? "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" WHY?

JESUS is our great HIGH PRIEST ministering on our behalf in the HEVENLY SANCTUARY *HEBREWS 4:14. JESUS is the KING of KINGS *REVELATIONS 17:14; 19:16

HE WILL RULE WITH GOD WHICH IS THE MEANING OF "ISRAEL" is the name given to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD because JESUS will make them to rule with him as PRIESTS and KINGS.

Notice also in REVELATION 7:3-8 just before the judgements of God are poured out on the world God's people are sealed with God's Spirit and 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of ISRAEL. [5], Of the tribe of JUDAH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of REUBEN were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of GAD were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of ASHER were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of MANESSAH were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of SIMEONwere sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of LEVI were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of ZEBULON were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of JOSEPH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of BENJAMIN were sealed twelve thousand.

Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

 

[sojourner]

To me these posts are simply eisegesis not exegesis and a lot of gobbdygoop

Of course it seems that way to you. You don’t understand the exegetical process.

 

[3rdAngel]

Of course it seems that way to you. You don’t understand the exegetical process.

I believe that the difference here is that I provided the exegetical process to the scriptures while you simply provided your opinion in eisegesis, along with false claims and accusations unsupported by evidence and the scriptures that you cannot prove. I suggest you learn the difference. Theres a difference. You have only provided an opinion unsupported by scripture that I believe is not biblical.

For example here is a complete study from the scriptures using the exegetical process throughout the old and new testament scriptures showing who God's true ISRAEL is in the new covenant here..

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

What have you provided except your own subjective opinion? Nothing. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

 

[sojourner]

I believe that the difference here is that I provided the exegetical process to the scriptures while you simply provided your opinion in eisegesis, along with false claims and accusations unsupported by evidence and the scriptures that you cannot prove. I suggest you learn the difference. Theres a difference. You have only provided an opinion unsupported by scripture that I believe is not biblical.

For example here is a complete study from the scriptures using the exegetical process throughout the old and new testament scriptures showing who God's true ISRAEL is in the new covenant here..

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

What have you provided except your own subjective opinion? Nothing. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

You think you understand the exegetical process but it’s clear you don’t. Exegesis begins with a specific text, not with questions that several different texts might answer.

 

[3rdAngel]

Exegesis begins with a specific text, not with questions that several different texts might answer.

Yep like this one here linked. This alone however by and of itself is not correct exegesis as the correct exegetical process also considers "correlation" or how the scripture being examined relates to the rest of the bible in "subject matter" or "topical scripture analysis" as provided above in the post you are responding to.

 

[sojourner]

Yep like this one here linked. This alone however by and of itself is not correct exegesis as the correct exegetical process also considers "correlation" or how the scripture being examined relates to the rest of the bible in "subject matter" or "topical scripture analysis" as provided above in the post you are responding to.

Your example is thin and weak. it would never pass a graduate level assignment.

And no. Generallly exegesis doesn’t attempt to correlate to the rest of the Bible.

My assessment stands. You don’t know what you’re doing with regard to exegesis.

 

[3rdAngel]

Your example is thin and weak. it would never pass a graduate level assignment.

And no. Generallly exegesis doesn’t attempt to correlate to the rest of the Bible.

My assessment stands. You don’t know what you’re doing with regard to exegesis.

Nonsense. The everything behind exegetical process has been applied including in the scriptures shared here and the OP in regards to ROMANS 9:6-8; 1. Obersvation; 2. Interpretation; 3. correlation and 4. Application. All you have done is try to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach (eisegesis). For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions that deny God's Word. My assessment stands. I believe it is you that does not know what your doing in regards to exegesis. The evidence however can be seen in what we both have posted.

 

[sojourner]

Nonsense. The whole process behind the exegetical process has been applied including; 1. Obersvation; 2. Interpretation; 3. correlation and Application. All you have done is try to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach (eisegesis). For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions that deny God's Word. My assessment stand as I believe it is you that does not know what your doing in regards to exegesis. The evidence is in what we both have posted.

Very weakly. Funny thing: mine was taken from one of the most respected commentaries. I think they know just a bit more than you.

 

[3rdAngel]

Very weakly. Funny thing: mine was taken from one of the most respected commentaries. I think they know just a bit more than you.

Not really. To bad you and your commentary are unable to demonstrate it.

 

[sojourner]

Not really. To bad you and your commentary unable to demonstrate it.

Your “assessment” carries no weight. You’re no expert. You’re no scholar. You can’t consistently spell correctly or use proper syntax (except when you’re pasting texts from undisclosed sources). Your “interpretations” are biased. And your only defense is, “Not really.” No proof or evidence, mind you. Just your say so which, BTW, you claim isn’t good enough.

Do you know why such a thing as orthodox doctrine exists? Because one loud person’s “say so” isn’t enough. Yet you rail against orthodoxy as if you knew better. Interpretation is a community activity — something I just don’t see in your posts.

 

[sojourner]

To me these posts are simply eisegesis not exegesis and a lot of gobbdygoop

“Gobbdygoop”: it’s an industry term in exegetical circles.

Don’t you mean gobbledygook?

One would think that you’d at least get your derision spelled correctly.

 

[3rdAngel]

Your “assessment” carries no weight.

Sure it does the weight is in the evidence of the scriptures provided. This is in contrast to lack of evidence and eisegesis which your assessment provides.

You’re no expert. You’re no scholar. You can’t consistently spell correctly or use proper syntax (except when you’re pasting texts from undisclosed sources). Your “interpretations” are biased. And your only defense is, “Not really.” No proof or evidence, mind you. Just your say so which, BTW, you claim isn’t good enough.

The scriptures I provide are my own bible study and prayerful time in God's Word. If I use external references unlike you I provide the source. I do not claim to be any expert or scholar. I am just like the humble fishermen that JESUS taught and believe God's promises.

Do you know why such a thing as orthodox doctrine exists? Because one loud person’s “say so” isn’t enough. Yet you rail against orthodoxy as if you knew better. Interpretation is a community activity — something I just don’t see in your posts.

For me as posted some time ago, I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day.

 

[sojourner]

Sure it does the weight is in the evidence of the scriptures provided

You didn’t provide any scriptures in your “assessment.”

I do not claim to be any expert or scholar

Therefore, your assessments (as I pointed out earlier) carry no weight.

For me as posted some time ago, I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day

This stock post that we’ve all seen before doesn’t answer my post.

you’re making less sense all the time.

 

[3rdAngel]

You didn’t provide any scriptures in your “assessment.”

Indeed, you provided no exegesis you provided eisegesis (your opinion) outside of the scriptures.

Therefore, your assessments (as I pointed out earlier) carry no weight.

I believe this is an assessment about yourself as you have provided no evidence for your opinion. On the other hand this op provide both exegesis of ROMANS 9:6-8 here as well as application to the rest of the bible here...

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

This is the evidence the carries weight. What have you provided outside of out opinion? - Nothing.

This stock post that we’ve all seen before doesn’t answer my post. you’re making less sense all the time.

I am sorry if your confused I cannot help you. I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it and I believe you have not provided any to support your claims here.

 

[sojourner]

Indeed, you provided no exegesis you provided eisegesis (your opinion) outside of the scriptures

That doesn’t provide a cogent answer to my post. You provided no scriptures in your assessment of my exegetical expertise. What does this post have to do with your post that said something about you posting scriptures to prove your opinion? You seem very, very confused.

I believe this is an assessment about yourself as you have provided no evidence for your opinion

Are you a scholar? You said that you’re not. Are you an expert? You claim to be blind in that regard. Your assessment of my abilities carries no weight, so long as you’re admittedly not an expert. My evidence is your own confession of ineptitude.

This is the evidence the carries weight. What have you provided outside of out opinion? - Nothing

This list has nothing to do with my expertise as an exegete.

I am sorry if your confused I cannot help you

you need to help your own confusion. Until you get your posting act together, I’m done with you. I can only conclude that your posts are nothing more than a shabby attempt to look like you know what you’re talking about, but it’s obvious that you don’t. I’m not wasting my time on gaslighting from you.

 

[3rdAngel]

That doesn’t provide a cogent answer to my post. You provided no scriptures in your assessment of my exegetical expertise. What does this post have to do with your post that said something about you posting scriptures to prove your opinion? You seem very, very confused.

Sure it does. The scriptures were already provided in the exegete of ROMANS 9:6-8 earlier in post # 111 linked and the topical application within to the rest of the bible here..

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

I guess you did not read there scriptures in the linked post above so I guess you do not know. Click on the links above and carefully read through them and you will understand my answer.

Are you a scholar? You said that you’re not. Are you an expert? You claim to be blind in that regard. Your assessment of my abilities carries no weight, so long as you’re admittedly not an expert. My evidence is your own confession of ineptitude.

No I simply said I am only like the humble fisherman that had JESUS as my guide and teachers. I do not judge you. I believe it is the scriptures you claim to believe and follow that sit in judgement *JOHN 12:47-48.

This list has nothing to do with my expertise as an exegete.

Sure it does. It is God's Word and we should believe and follow it over man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. JESUS says all those who knowingly follow man made tradtitions and teachings that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:2-9.

you need to help your own confusion. Until you get your posting act together, I’m done with you. I can only conclude that your posts are nothing more than a shabby attempt to look like you know what you’re talking about, but it’s obvious that you don’t. I’m not wasting my time on gaslighting from you.

There is only confusion if one does not believe and follow God's Word ROMANS 3:4. I believe the scriptures call this state "darkness" (believing lies) and say that men love darkness rather then light (truth) because their deeds were evil and will not come to the "light" lest their deeds (sins) should be reproved *JOHN 3:19-21

 

[3rdAngel]

Back to the OP....

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

Hope this helps..