God's Judgment of Dead Babies

[Ingledsva]

I had assumed everyone already knew this, but you're the second person who evidently did not -- she never had sex. That's why she's a virgin. You can read about it in the Gospel of Saint Luke 1:26-38

Only if you add in the Christian fable, to Hebrew texts. This is Isaiah who is told to go into the maiden and have sex, to produce a sign from God. That sign is Immanuel - Isaiah's son. It is not Jesus.

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[Ingledsva]

And not a single one of these says we are born with sin.

Psalms 51:5 ACTUALLY SAYS -

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

In other words sex is iniquity = brought forth in iniquity.

Actually, no, it isn't.

This verse is poetic hyperbole. The context of the rest of the Psalm is David, who is lamenting the sin Nathan called him on with Batsheva.

Because honestly: marital sex is one of the holiest activities humans can participate in. At least, it is in Jewish philosophy.

I am well aware of that.

I am arguing what the verse wording says, - with a Christian that believes it falls under EVERYONE is born WITH sin, which obviously it doesn't say.

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[Norman]

How does God judge the souls of dead babies? Do they all get a free pass to Heaven, even if they would have become evil adults who would have rebelled against God? Does God know the souls of the infants or children who would have grown up to become evil and worthy of Hell? Does God send the would-be evil souls to Hell or does God judge every dead infant as sinless and innocent, despite the fact that they would have chosen evil had they been given the chance? If God judges dead babies to be innocent and automatically worthy of Heaven, then why must adults live through the sufferings of this life to be tested and judged by God before we go to Heaven or Hell; whereas, all the infants or young children who die always go straight to Heaven?

Norman: Hi Salvador, I believe babies are saved because they cannot sin. Adults are capable of sinning so we must be tested in this life and endure our sufferings and blessings to the end.
However, if I may add, Augustine of Hippo introduced original sin from what Adam and Eve did. I do not believe in original sin because the only thing that happened because of the garden,
we all suffer spiritual death. Adam and Eve when kicked out of the garden experienced being kicked out of the presence of God thus spiritual death. This however is covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ and we can through our obedience to the best of our ability can be redeemed from the fall.
Sorry: I wanted to add, Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, we are subject to physical death, which is the separation of the spirit from the body. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death (see 1 Corinthians 15:22). Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death.

 

[Norman]

It is interesting that most belief systems promote the idea that we have an immortal part of us that leaves the body at death. This is not what the Bible teaches. The Jews did not believe in an immortal soul. They believed that the soul was the person themselves, and that when death occurred, the person would "sleep" in death until it was God's time to resurrect them. All the human dead go to "Sheol" sometimes translated as "hell" when it simply means the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Norman: Hi JayJayDee, I know what the Jehovah Witnesses teach about Ecclesiastes 9:5,10. However looking at the text gives us a different story.
Ecclesiastes. The Message of the Preacher

Ecclesiastes is “a Greek translation of the Hebrew Koheleth, a word meaning ‘one who convenes an assembly,’ sometimes rendered Preacher. The book of Ecclesiastes consists of reflections on some of the deepest problems of life, as they present themselves to the thoughtful observer. The epilogue (Eccl. 12:9–14) sets forth the main conclusions at which the writer has arrived. The author describes himself as ‘son of David, king in Jerusalem’ (1:1). “The book of Ecclesiastes seems permeated with a pessimistic flavor, but must be read in the light of one of its key phrases: ‘under the sun’ (1:9), meaning ‘from a worldly point of view.’ The term vanity also needs clarification, since as used in Ecclesiastes it means transitory, or fleeting. Thus the Preacher laments that as things appear from the point of view of the world, everything is temporary and soon gone—nothing is permanent. It is in this light also that the reader must understand 9:5 and 9:10, which declare that the dead ‘know not any thing,’ and there is no knowledge ‘in the grave.’ These should not be construed as theological pronouncements on the condition of the soul after death; rather, they are observations by the Preacher about how things appear to men on the earth ‘under the sun.’ The most spiritual part of the book appears in chapters 11 and 12, where it is concluded that the only activity of lasting and permanent value comes from obedience to God’s commandments, since all things will be examined in the judgment that God will render on man.” (Bible Dictionary, s.v. “Ecclesiastes.”)
www.lds.org

We all go to this 'hell' whether we are young, old or anywhere in between. When you see "Rest in Peace" on a gravestone, that is truly what is meant. There never was a heaven or hell scenario outlined in the Bible. Christendom adopted that idea from the pagans. Jesus never taught about such an idea.

He spoke about "Gehenna" but that is not "hades". Jesus' Jewish audience knew exactly what he was referring to and it had nothing to do with a hell of torment.

When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the dead, he did not bring him back from heaven. Why would he take him from paradise and bring him back to this life only to suffer and die a second time? Lazarus made no statement about being anywhere. Jesus said he had been sleeping and that he was going to awaken him. (John 11:11-14)

Norman: [Matt. 16:18] :….The Greek word used to denote church in Matthew 16:18 is ecclesia, which literally means a “calling out” and originally referred to a civil assembly. Thus Jesus’ use of the phrase “my church” referred to an assembly “called” by him. [Matt. 16:18] In the New Testament, Hades is the realm of the dead. It cannot be successfully maintained that it is, in particular, the place for sinners Thus Matthew 16:18-19 does not relate to the continuity of the relationship between Christ and his church organization in time. Instead, the passage refers to the protective and saving bond between Christ and repentant sinners—his sons and daughters—now and throughout eternity. [Matt 16:18-19] The phrase “gates of hell” refers to the place of restriction for the unjust dead. The barrier that separates them from the paradise of the dead is the justice of God. This idea is expressed in the Savior’s parable of the beggar Lazarus. The parable teaches, among other things, that communication between paradise and hell, or spirit prison, is restricted because there is “a great gulf fixed” between the two places. (See Luke 16:19-26.) Jesus’ atonement bridged the gulf and breached the “gates” so that the repentant in prison could be liberated through the vicarious ordinances. The gates of hell could not prevail against them.

Death is a peaceful sleep.....nothing more. Babies, adults, children....we all go to sleep in the grave. Jesus has promised to resurrect both the righteous and the unrighteous when he takes over his kingship on earth. (John 5:28, 29)

Knowing this takes away all the questions about God's justice, which is perfect.

Norman: In my belief babies cannot sin therefore they are saved and redeemed from the fall (Adam and Eve.) They do not have to be tested and judged in this life like adults do, who are capable
of sinning.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Norman: Hi Salvador, I believe babies are saved because they cannot sin.

Forgive me for the interruption, I have some inquiries if I may.

I'd like to know your view in what defines sin and what's the age or maybe standards that in which one can't be held sinful.

I also heard that in Christianity people are born sinful. Perhaps being sinful and being judged for sin are two different things in Christianity?

Please advise.

 

[Norman]

Forgive me for the interruption, I have some inquiries if I may.

I'd like to know your view in what defines sin and what's the age or maybe standards that in which one can't be held sinful.

Norman: In my Church the age of accountability is eight years old. Sin is willful wrongdoing. James indicates that it can also be the willful failure to do right: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (4:17). Sin is transgression of the law (1 Jn. 3:4), but one is not held responsible for sins against a law that one has not had opportunity to know. Sin is the transgression of divine law, as made known through the conscience or by revelation. A man sins when he violates his conscience, going contrary to light and knowledge-not the light and knowledge that has come to his neighbor, but that which has come to himself. He sins when he does the opposite of what he knows to be right. Up to that point he only blunders. One may suffer painful consequences for only blundering, but he cannot commit sin unless he knows better than to do the thing in which the sin consists. One must have a conscience before he can violate it [pp. 241-42].

God does not hold one responsible for wrong done in ignorance or harm done to others unintentionally, because such actions do not constitute sin. One's ignorance, immaturity, or even recklessness may injure others, and individuals may be accountable for the consequences they help to bring about. But in such situations, where there is no ill intent, there is no sin. This does not mean that people who do wrong in ignorance do not suffer, perhaps physically or in their relationships with others. Moreover, when one becomes aware of having contributed to problems, it usually would be considered sin to avoid making amends or to refuse to help correct the difficulties created.

I also heard that in Christianity people are born sinful. Perhaps being sinful and being judged for sin are two different things in Christianity?

Norman:I am assuming that you are referring to “original sin” which was introduced by Augustine of Hippo a Catholic Monk. We do not embrace original sin, two things happened from the garden with Adam and Eve when they were kicked out of the garden. They suffered spiritual death being out of the presence of God and they suffered psychical death. These two things is what we did inherit and the atonement of Jesus Christ covers both of them. I don’t see a difference in being sinful and being judged for our sins; they are the same thing.

Please advise.

 

[Smart_Guy]

@Norman
I understand. Thank you for the answers

 

[Norman]

@Norman
I understand. Thank you for the answers

Norman: Thank you for the "like." You are very welcome, thank you for the questions.