God's language in Genesis?

[Terry Sampson]

I believe that has to be self affirming also.

I don't know what that means.

 

[sojourner]

I subscribe to a theory of revelation and theology described by Conservative Jew, Benjamin D. Sommer (Professor of Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages, The Jewish Theological Seminary, New York). In Sommer's book, Revelation and Authority (2015), he proposes using

• "the terms “participatory theory of revelation” and “participatory theology” to speak of approaches to revelation that view the Pentateuch (and Jewish tradition generally) as the result of a dialogue between God and Israel. According to the participatory theology, the Pentateuch not only conveys God’s will but also reflects Israel’s interpretation of and response to that will. This view of revelation puts a premium on human agency and gives witness to the grandeur of a God who accomplishes a providential task through the free will of human subjects under God’s authority. We may contrast participatory theologies with a better-known view of revelation, which [Sommer terms] “the stenographic theory of revelation.” According to the latter theory, God dictated all the words of the Pentateuch to Moses, and Moses recorded God’s words without altering them. In the stenographic theory, all the words of the Pentateuch are God’s. In the participatory theory, the wording in the Pentateuch is a joint effort involving heavenly and earthly contributions; or the wording may be an entirely human response to God’s real but nonverbal revelation. Especially in the second chapter of this book, I argue that the Pentateuch itself gives voice to both stenographic and participatory theologies of revelation." (Page 2)

Sommer uses his terms only when referring to Hebrew texts. I accept Sommer's view of the Hebrew texts and I apply the terms also to the traditional Christian scriptures in the same manner.

Thanks for that! I like the “Participatory Theory.” It’s a completely different dynamic than what’s being purveyed here — and one that’s far more consistent with traditional theologies and ecclesiologies.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I mentioned scripture. In fact, I mentioned scripture first.


It’s not supposed to. But how else can we have “the word of God” without it, removed, as we are, in time and culture, from the stories of Tradition that link us to it?


Soo... you’re saying that we don’t need the Bible to help form the basis of our faith?


That’s not what I asked. I asked you to show where the Bible specifically and explicitly says that “God is the author.” They’re not the same thing.
“Authorship” means that someone lifted a pen or tapped a keyboard and created actual words that comprise a message. There is no record of God doing that task.


This suggests a word-by-word dictation process. The texts, themselves, suggest otherwise, since there is much evidence of editing, later additions, and translational problems.


Not one that will show the Bible for what it is.

But your 'scripture' is not the Word of God.

You don't have the Word of God, period. Remember? All you have is the word of man.

I am saying you can know the Hebrew perfectly, and the Greek for that matter. You can have the most accurate translation of the Bible at your fingertips. But if you lack faith that it is the Word of God as it claims, your knowledge of Hebrew and Greek will do nothing for you.

I already showed you in the Bible that God is the Author. You just don't believe God is the Author so no verse will convince you. And don't misunderstand...I'm not trying to convince you. Just answering your statements of unbelief.

As I said, man was involved in the writing of Scripture which culminated in the Bible. But God was the Author as Scripture declares. As I have showed you. If you believe the 'evidence' of the 'scholarly' non-believers, then by all means, reject the Bible as the Word of God.

Oh yes, there is a greater court. And He, to whom all judgement is given, is the head of that court. And He, who declared time and again, 'It is written', will be your judge.

Look at (Acts 6:9-7:60). The court of the Pharisees had Stephen before them in their court. What they didn't know was that they were in the court of God with Christ overseeing. Note especially (7:54-56). Stephen saw Christ standing to receive him. Quite an act since Christ forever sat down at the right hand of God. (Heb. 10:12)

So, as I said, there is a greater court. Your court of man is not the one I am concerned with.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sojourner]

But your 'scripture' is not the Word of God

Where do you get that? That’s not what I said.

You don't have the Word of God, period. Remember? All you have is the word of man

No, that’s not what I said.

I am saying you can know the Hebrew perfectly, and the Greek for that matter. You can have the most accurate translation of the Bible at your fingertips. But if you lack faith that it is the Word of God as it claims, your knowledge of Hebrew and Greek will do nothing for you

It will help greatly on the exegetical process.

I already showed you in the Bible that God is the Author. You just don't believe God is the Author so no verse will convince you. And don't misunderstand...I'm not trying to convince you. Just answering your statements of unbelief

No. The texts do not literally, specifically say “God is the author.” It has nothing to do with belief. It has to do with reading what the texts actually say.

As I said, man was involved in the writing of Scripture which culminated in the Bible. But God was the Author as Scripture declares

The scripture declares no such thing. Human beings authored the texts under inspiration of the HS.

Oh yes, there is a greater court. And He, to whom all judgement is given, is the head of that court. And He, who declared time and again, 'It is written', will be your judge

Not buying it.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Where do you get that? That’s not what I said.


No, that’s not what I said.


It will help greatly on the exegetical process.

No. The texts do not literally, specifically say “God is the author.” It has nothing to do with belief. It has to do with reading what the texts actually say.

The scripture declares no such thing. Human beings authored the texts under inspiration of the HS.


Not buying it.

Yes, that is what you said. You said the Bible is not the Word of God. That is your whole argument. See post # (115) and (132).

Yes, that is what you said. See post #(132). You said the Bible is a human work after I said it was the Word of God.

Again, the Pharisees knew the Hebrew better than you. And they missed it. Just like you miss it. Go ahead and trust your translation skill. So far it has only led you to unbelief.

It has everything to do with faith and belief and I gave you Scripture to prove it. But of course, your scripture is not the Word of God so it means nothing to you.

I have already showed you that Scripture declares that the Bible is the Word of God. You don't like it because you don't believe it. You don't believe it because.... The answer to that is in some of the Scripture I gave you that is the Word of God.

The inspiration of the Holy Ghost makes it, the Bible, the Word of God and God as the Author.

I don't care if you buy it or not. I'm not selling anything. I am simply showing that your view of the Bible is false. Let the chips fall.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sojourner]

The inspiration of the Holy Ghost makes it, the Bible, the Word of God and God as the Author

Yes. Inspiration makes it the word of God, but it doesn’t make God the author. The word comes through people, who, together, authored it.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, that is what you said. You said the Bible is not the Word of God. That is your whole argument. See post # (115) and (132).

You’ve misquoted me, just as you misquote the Bible. Show me from either post where I specifically and literally said: “The Bible is not the word of God.” You can’t, ‘cause I didn’t say that. Either time. What you’re doing is eisegesis, in both cases. You read some words and then read into them what isn’t literally there. You make an incorrect inference. This is what “taking things on belief” does. This is why reason is part of the tripod of faith.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Yes. Inspiration makes it the word of God, but it doesn’t make God the author. The word comes through people, who, together, authored it.

The inspiration of God makes it the Word of God. Not the inspiration of man. Making God the Author.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You’ve misquoted me, just as you misquote the Bible. Show me from either post where I specifically and literally said: “The Bible is not the word of God.” You can’t, ‘cause I didn’t say that. Either time. What you’re doing is eisegesis, in both cases. You read some words and then read into them what isn’t literally there. You make an incorrect inference. This is what “taking things on belief” does. This is why reason is part of the tripod of faith.

See post #(115) and (132). Pay attention.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sojourner]

The inspiration of God makes it the Word of God. Not the inspiration of man. Making God the Author.

Good-Ole-Rebel

“Inspire” and “author” are two different things.

 

[sojourner]

See post #(115) and (132). Pay attention.

Good-Ole-Rebel

I did look at them. I wrote them. I looked at them twice since. Nowhere in either one does either one specifically and literally say what you claim. You are inferring that (incorrectly). IOW, you’re misquoting me. Which is a forum violation.


Pay attention.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

“Inspire” and “author” are two different things.

So? As I said, it is the inspiration of God, not man. Thus God is the Author.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I did look at them. I wrote them. I looked at them twice since. Nowhere in either one does either one specifically and literally say what you claim. You are inferring that (incorrectly). IOW, you’re misquoting me. Which is a forum violation.


Pay attention.

First of all, I didn't quote you at all. Second of all, that is what you said.

But we can clear it up right now. Is the Bible the Word of God?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sojourner]

So? As I said, it is the inspiration of God, not man. Thus God is the Author

“Inspiration” =/= “Authorship.” Human beings authored the texts. They weren’t just taking dictation.

First of all, I didn't quote you at all.

You did. You said I said that.

Second of all, that is what you said.

See? You said I said. That’s misquoting. Go back and reread the posts. I said no such thing.

 

[sojourner]

But we can clear it up right now. Is the Bible the Word of God?

Not in the way you mean, no. You claim that God “authored” the Bible. That means that the Bible is “God’s words — not God’s word. There’s a difference that’s important. God’s principle of reason and judgment is given voice first through the words (read: “language”) of human messengers, and later gathered, edited and written down by human authors. That principle of reason and judgment is God’s word. Logos. In that sense, the Bible is believed to be God’s word.

The Bible is not believed to be the actual verbalized or written language God uttered or penned, with its attendant grammar and syntax. The prophets and authors and editors were more involved than being just stenographers. God’s principle comes through and is characterized by very human concept, understanding, language and authorship.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

“Inspiration” =/= “Authorship.” Human beings authored the texts. They weren’t just taking dictation.

You did. You said I said that.

See? You said I said. That’s misquoting. Go back and reread the posts. I said no such thing.

God Authored the Bible. If Human beings authored the Bible, then it is not the Word of God. It is the word of human beings. Sometimes they took dictation. Sometimes not. Sometimes God wrote directly. Either way it is the Spirit of God that Authored the writings. Not man.

(Ex. 31:18) "And he gave unto Moses,when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, twos tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."

(Ex. (32:16) "And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables."

(Ex. 34:27-28) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: ...And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights....And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Not in the way you mean, no. You claim that God “authored” the Bible. That means that the Bible is “God’s words — not God’s word. There’s a difference that’s important. God’s principle of reason and judgment is given voice first through the words (read: “language”) of human messengers, and later gathered, edited and written down by human authors. That principle of reason and judgment is God’s word. Logos. In that sense, the Bible is believed to be God’s word.

The Bible is not believed to be the actual verbalized or written language God uttered or penned, with its attendant grammar and syntax. The prophets and authors and editors were more involved than being just stenographers. God’s principle comes through and is characterized by very human concept, understanding, language and authorship.

Simple yes or no. Is the Bible the Word of God?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sojourner]

God Authored the Bible

I don’t think so.

If Human beings authored the Bible, then it is not the Word of God. It is the word of human beings

Could be both...

Sometimes they took dictation

I don’t believe they did.

Sometimes God wrote directly

No. God didn’t doesn’t write.

(Ex. 31:18) "And he gave unto Moses,when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, twos tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God

Completely mythic.

 

[sojourner]

Simple yes or no. Is the Bible the Word of God?

The subject is complex, thus it requires more than a simple, one word answer. Best I’ve got for you is this:

Not in the way you mean, no. You claim that God “authored” the Bible. That means that the Bible is “God’s words — not God’s word. There’s a difference that’s important. God’s principle of reason and judgment is given voice first through the words (read: “language”) of human messengers, and later gathered, edited and written down by human authors. That principle of reason and judgment is God’s word. Logos. In that sense, the Bible is believed to be God’s word.

The Bible is not believed to be the actual verbalized or written language God uttered or penned, with its attendant grammar and syntax. The prophets and authors and editors were more involved than being just stenographers. God’s principle comes through and is characterized by very human concept, understanding, language and authorship.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I don’t think so.


Could be both...
I don’t believe they did.


No. God didn’t doesn’t write.


Completely mythic.

I just showed you that He did.

No, it couldn't be both. It is either the Word of God or the word of human beings. And I just showed you at times dictation was the method.

I just showed you that God does write. The Bible declares it.

So, you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. As I have been saying. You can't have it both ways. You cant reject the truth of what the Bible says, call it a myth, and then say you believe the Bible is the Word of God.

Good-Ole-Rebel