God's Random Dice: Order or Disorder or...

[sealchan]

4
I have read philosophy of the flesh. He is very nonreductive and cautious.

Want to...haven't yet though...

Metaphors are like that.

 

[sealchan]

No problem different infinities are defined differently.



An actual infinity can be defined as a set with a beginning and an end. An actual infinity that is defined as all the fractions between 0 and 1 would be an actual infinity set bounded by 0 and 1.

A potential infinity would not have an end point by definition.



A potential infinity can be defined as having a starting point.



A potential infinity can be parallel to another potential infinity



An infinity defined as real objects can possibly move.



Potential infinities can be directional starting at any point, such as an infinite line defined as a ray without an end point. Yes they can be defined as simultaneous to each other.




Infinities are contained by their definition. Different infinities are defined differently based on the purpose of the math that uses them



This is a simplistic assertion that needs more explanation. Math as well as the use of infinities, and yes like all math that is descriptive of our physical existence the math does not exist, but may or may not describe infinities that do exist.

Example of a real infinity: Start at point P and place an infinite number of playing cards end one end around the world and keep doing it. No matter how many playing cards you put down you can always place one more.



Actual infinities indeed do have boundaries in defined closed sets, for example: All the fractions between 0 and 1 would be an actual infinity set bounded by 0 and 1.

Read Infinity and the Mind by Rudy Tucker and get educated.

Infinity is one of those concepts that you want to treat like a specific value but it just isn't. Yet in mathematics they created a symbol...it could be a constant, variable, whatever...but it is more conceptual than any other simple quantity. It belongs in the same family as i (the square root of negative one).

Infinity also shows up the rational limitations of the otherwise logical system of numbers. I guess the Achilles and the Tortoise paradox is one such example where a faster object cannot ever catch up with a slower object. That paradox is resolved by the fact that there is a difference between distance and number such that just because there is a fractional number between two points on the number line, that is distinct from the distance between two points which exists in a reality that also involves time (namely the reality of velocity). To take ever smaller fractional amounts of time is to approach time = 0 while distance lost between them approaches the net difference in Achilles and the Tortoise's speed for any given distance...which is still a net positive value...so Achilles gains ground and will pass the tortoise. It all seems a bit like the foundations of the calculus.

So, perhaps, to the extent that infinity doesn't manifest itself in the physical world, but only in the numerical, we can accept them in science and engineering.

 

[David T]

Your posts appear to be random. They usually consist of whatever is on your mind at that second, regardless of the topic.

Nt Wright and bios logos please explain how nt Wright and bios logos are connected. It's a cult at best.

 

[sealchan]

The question is based on a false premise that allows for two results. The false premise is nature plays fair. It most certainly does not. Nothing fair about nature. In a two headed coin toss random. Has no place but in a two headed coin toss the only thing predictive is nature wins thus determinism predictibility is false. Both are a projection of a tiny region of the brain called the higher functioning onto nature is all.

I think I get where you are going with this and I don't disagree.

Nature seems to play its order or disorder "card" as it will. Neither predictability nor non-predictability has the "upper hand". There is always a wild card factor of a coin standing on its edge so to speak.

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, IMO, says as much. The human mind projects (or co-creates) our understanding of natural order and so it should not be surprised if at all levels nature seems to cheat.

And did you notice how my thread title ends in "or..."?

 

[David T]

I think I get where you are going with this and I don't disagree.

Nature seems to play its order or disorder "card" as it will. Neither predictability nor non-predictability has the "upper hand". There is always a wild card factor of a coin standing on its edge so to speak.

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, IMO, says as much. The human mind projects (or co-creates) our understanding of natural order and so it should not be surprised if at all levels nature seems to cheat.

And did you notice how my thread title ends in "or..."?

Yes and that is good science as well.

The real problem with random is I can start a story "in the beginning was random, random was God random is God random determines" its deeply problematic and only relates to the observer observing it is not the observed. It really actually is we have no clue gives rise to what we have. Clue about, and what we understand determines what we have no clue about"

I am Hyper nature oriented not our narratives about nature oriented. I think that's actually good science that's honest and good science gets that. Random is dishonest when expanded beyond extremely specific discussions into over arching do all philosophy which reductionism does.

I have found a kind of religious fervor in science that is co equally as annoying as it is in religion. Generally it argues with itself.

 

[shunyadragon]

Infinity is one of those concepts that you want to treat like a specific value but it just isn't. Yet in mathematics they created a symbol...it could be a constant, variable, whatever...but it is more conceptual than any other simple quantity. It belongs in the same family as i (the square root of negative one).

Infinity also shows up the rational limitations of the otherwise logical system of numbers. I guess the Achilles and the Tortoise paradox is one such example where a faster object cannot ever catch up with a slower object. That paradox is resolved by the fact that there is a difference between distance and number such that just because there is a fractional number between two points on the number line, that is distinct from the distance between two points which exists in a reality that also involves time (namely the reality of velocity). To take ever smaller fractional amounts of time is to approach time = 0 while distance lost between them approaches the net difference in Achilles and the Tortoise's speed for any given distance...which is still a net positive value...so Achilles gains ground and will pass the tortoise. It all seems a bit like the foundations of the calculus.

So, perhaps, to the extent that infinity doesn't manifest itself in the physical world, but only in the numerical, we can accept them in science and engineering.

This is a little backwards on how infinities are considered in math and science. First, infinities are descriptive in math and science, and not prescriptive. Infinities like math do not define our physical existence, they are tools in science to describe our physical existence.

Whether infinities are actually manifest in the physical world is not the issue.

 

[shunyadragon]

Randomicity can't be counted ....in infinite sets.

The purpose of infinite sets is not to count randomicity?. Randomness is not observed in the real world, and neither are infinities directly observed in the real word. Infinities are descriptive tools in math for the use in science.

 

[shunyadragon]

How many die land on one of their twelve edges ?
Now and only then, would that be randomness.

Depends if they are twelve sided dice, and than it would not be random it would be fractal, For eight sided dice they do not land on their 8 tips nor 12 edges.

 

[shunyadragon]

I somewhat agree with that assumption,
but...what constitutes the construction of the container ?
Where does the `void` begin, back to the Chaos of reality.

How are you defining the "void." Chaos Theory describes the fractal nature of the variability in the outcomes of events in nature. How are you defining "chaos."

This does not make sense.

 

[`mud]

hey Shuny,
I think I said that..."Randomicity can't be counted ....in infinite sets"
Asking again:"Are infinities directional ?", are there more than one ?
What is `the real word`, did you mean `world` ? No. They can't !
Describe a `negative` infinity, does one exist ? less than zero in math or science ?
Back to `sets`, what is the practical limit to limitless counts of `sets` ?
What is the `boundry` of these `sets`, and what is beyond these `sets` ?
Could it be a `void`, even if `voids` don't exist, what is the container of these `sets` ?
~
Why would there be `twelve` sides(faces) on a die ? How many faces does a die have ?
I don't remember seeing an eight faced die, maybe six faced, and twelve edges.
Hard to have a die land it's corner, but it could happen, on an edge.....
try playing in your front yard, if you have grass. I think there are many situations here.
~
In regards to voids and chaos, voids don't exist, nor do containers, empty or not.
Chaos is any non-repeated variability of any occurance found in the Cosmos.
Of course within the known `boundries` of the Cosmos itself.
~
You like to compare an empty bowl to the missing contents, first...find the contents !
~
That's all this Goonie bird has to say for now,
remember...I'm always confused !
~
NuffSuff

 

[shunyadragon]

hey Shuny,
I think I said that..."Randomicity can't be counted ....in infinite sets"

. . . and I said randomness and infinities sets are not remotely related.

Asking again:"Are infinities directional ?", are there more than one ?
What is `the real word`, did you mean `world` ? No. They can't !
Describe a `negative` infinity, does one exist ? less than zero in math or science ?
Back to `sets`, what is the practical limit to limitless counts of `sets` ?
What is the `boundry` of these `sets`, and what is beyond these `sets` ?
Could it be a `void`, even if `voids` don't exist, what is the container of these `sets` ?
~
Why would there be `twelve` sides(faces) on a die ? How many faces does a die have ?
I don't remember seeing an eight faced die, maybe six faced, and twelve edges.
Hard to have a die land it's corner, but it could happen, on an edge.....
try playing in your front yard, if you have grass. I think there are many situations here.
~
In regards to voids and chaos, voids don't exist, nor do containers, empty or not.
Chaos is any non-repeated variability of any occurance found in the Cosmos.
Of course within the known `boundries` of the Cosmos itself.
~
You like to compare an empty bowl to the missing contents, first...find the contents !
~
That's all this Goonie bird has to say for now,
remember...I'm always confused !
~
NuffSuff

I answered all these questions and you did not respond.

↑
Questioning the probability of multiple infinities...

No problem different infinities are defined differently.

Can an infinity end ?

An actual infinity can be defined as a set with a beginning and an end. An actual infinity that is defined as all the fractions between 0 and 1 would be an actual infinity set bounded by 0 and 1.

A potential infinity would not have an end point by definition.

Can it start ?

A potential infinity can be defined as having a starting point.

Is it parallel with anything ?

A potential infinity can be parallel to another potential infinity

Does it move ?

An infinity defined as real objects can possibly move.

Are these infinities directional, or are they simultaneous to each other ?

Potential infinities can be directional starting at any point, such as an infinite line defined as a ray without an end point. Yes they can be defined as simultaneous to each other.

And of course, what contains them within their systemic interactions ?

Infinities are contained by their definition. Different infinities are defined differently based on the purpose of the math that uses them

Summation is of course: Infinity doesn't really exist,

This is a simplistic assertion that needs more explanation. Math as well as the use of infinities, and yes like all math that is descriptive of our physical existence the math does not exist, but may or may not describe infinities that do exist.

Example of a real infinity: Start at point P and place an infinite number of playing cards end one end around the world and keep doing it. No matter how many playing cards you put down you can always place one more.

. . . but...where's the boundary ?

Actual infinities indeed do have boundaries in defined closed sets, for example: All the fractions between 0 and 1 would be an actual infinity set bounded by 0 and 1.

Read Infinity and the Mind by Rudy Tucker and get educated.

 

[`mud]

I told you I was confused, what's your problem ?

 

[shunyadragon]

I told you I was confused, what's your problem ?

OK, reread and respond.

 

[`mud]

I'll have to give up on this thread......
You didn't respond to my response !
Like I said....
NuffStuff