Gods unconditional election

[Mr Cheese]

Thanks for your response. As I mentioned before, our position or understanding on the topic depends on our source of truth or source of revelation.

right

if we are using poorly translated books seeped through the filter of literalism we can get the conclusion that all humanity are satan's children.....

This seems rather strange and un christian....

Can someone help?

 

[Mr Cheese]

babies are evil...they are goign to hell!

hmmm I cant understand this logic

can someone help?

 

[Christless Christianity]

babies are evil...they are goign to hell!

hmmm I cant understand this logic

can someone help?

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Rom 5

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Good morning Katzpur,

I was addresing this to Cheese, but I remember our conversation from yesterday in regards to infants, original sin, and guilt of Adam. Would you like to give me your understanding of the verses above?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Of course if you go further, adam was perfect before he split...

one perspective on the fall is, it is an allegorical tale of concious states... and polarity

But of course, talkign snakes, fig leaves, demons and women as the source of all evil is preferrable to many.... it requires far less effort

 

[Katzpur]

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Rom 5

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Good morning Katzpur,

I was addresing this to Cheese, but I remember our conversation from yesterday in regards to infants, original sin, and guilt of Adam. Would you like to give me your understanding of the verses above?

Sure I'd be happy to. I hope you don't mind if I begin by just putting Romans 5:12-21 into my own words. Doing so helps me to think through its meaning. (My words are in blue font.)

Romans 5:12-21 Just as sin entered into the world through the actions of one man, and death as a result of that sin, and just as all will die, because all have sinned (while sin existed in the world prior to the law being given, mankind was not held accountable prior to the law), death reigned from the time of Adam until the time of Moses. Because of Adam's transgression, it affected even those who had not sinned themselves as Adam had.

But in terms of the free gift, just as many died because of one man's offence, God's gift of grace, given by one man, Jesus Christ, also affected many. All stood condemned sin of one man, but God's free gift can justify the sins of all men. Just as all were subject to death by the sins of one man, all can receive Christ's grace and rightness and shall oversome death. Many were subject to sin as a result of one man's disobedience, but many shall be made righteous as a result of one man's obedience.

The law was given in order that we might be held accountable for our sins, but just as we are held accountable for our sins, we might also be pardoned for them by grace. Just as sin resulted in death, the grace our our Lord Jesus Christ will prevail, and through His righteousness will result in eternal life.

There's a lot of repetition there, huh? Anyway, to me this is saying that death entered into the world as a result of Adam's transgression. It would affect even those who had never sinned themselves, and death would, in fact, have prevailed forever had it not been for the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Latter-day Saints believe that Adam's transgression resulted in two kinds of death: physical and spiritual. Physical death affects us all, whether early in life or late in life. It is universal. Likewise, Jesus Christ's resurrection from the dead assures all mankind a similar resurrection. It is unconditional. It requires no faith, no obedience, nothing. If a person is born, he will die and he will someday be resurrected. Spiritual death (or the separation from God) is another matter. One dies spiritually when he commits his first sin. Spiritual salvation, or the reconcilement with God, is possible only through Christ's sacrifice. However, unlike salvation from physical death, which is unconditional, salvation from spiritual death is conditional upon our faith in Christ and obedience to His commandments.

You quoted two passages of scripture (Psalm 58:3 and Psalm 51:5) which you apparently interpret as meaning that we are born in sin. Mormons make a distinction between being born a sinner and being born with a propensity or inclination to sin. Romans 5:14 seems to bear this out since it refers to peoplewho had not sinned. Even a child of two can disobey his or her parent, thereby dishonor that parent. The Bible commands us to honor our parents, but it does not hold us accountable for sins committed prior to our being able to recognize them as sins. Consequently, babies and little children are believed to be without sin.

 

[Christless Christianity]

Sure I'd be happy to. I hope you don't mind if I begin by just putting Romans 5:12-21 into my own words. Doing so helps me to think through its meaning. (My words are in blue font.)

Romans 5:12-21 Just as sin entered into the world through the actions of one man, and death as a result of that sin, and just as all will die, because all have sinned (while sin existed in the world prior to the law being given, mankind was not held accountable prior to the law), death reigned from the time of Adam until the time of Moses. Because of Adam's transgression, it affected even those who had not sinned themselves as Adam had.

But in terms of the free gift, just as many died because of one man's offence, God's gift of grace, given by one man, Jesus Christ, also affected many. All stood condemned sin of one man, but God's free gift can justify the sins of all men. Just as all were subject to death by the sins of one man, all can receive Christ's grace and rightness and shall oversome death. Many were subject to sin as a result of one man's disobedience, but many shall be made righteous as a result of one man's obedience.

The law was given in order that we might be held accountable for our sins, but just as we are held accountable for our sins, we might also be pardoned for them by grace. Just as sin resulted in death, the grace our our Lord Jesus Christ will prevail, and through His righteousness will result in eternal life.

There's a lot of repetition there, huh? Anyway, to me this is saying that death entered into the world as a result of Adam's transgression. It would affect even those who had never sinned themselves, and death would, in fact, have prevailed forever had it not been for the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Latter-day Saints believe that Adam's transgression resulted in two kinds of death: physical and spiritual. Physical death affects us all, whether early in life or late in life. It is universal. Likewise, Jesus Christ's resurrection from the dead assures all mankind a similar resurrection. It is unconditional. It requires no faith, no obedience, nothing. If a person is born, he will die and he will someday be resurrected. Spiritual death (or the separation from God) is another matter. One dies spiritually when he commits his first sin. Spiritual salvation, or the reconcilement with God, is possible only through Christ's sacrifice. However, unlike salvation from physical death, which is unconditional, salvation from spiritual death is conditional upon our faith in Christ and obedience to His commandments.

You quoted two passages of scripture (Psalm 58:3 and Psalm 51:5) which you apparently interpret as meaning that we are born in sin. Mormons make a distinction between being born a sinner and being born with a propensity or inclination to sin. Romans 5:14 seems to bear this out since it refers to peoplewho had not sinned. Even a child of two can disobey his or her parent, thereby dishonor that parent. The Bible commands us to honor our parents, but it does not hold us accountable for sins committed prior to our being able to recognize them as sins. Consequently, babies and little children are believed to be without sin.

Thanks for sharing the LDS understanding. Would it be fair to say that since Adam's sin was not imputed to us, then the LDS understanding would deny the imputation of Christ's perfect righteous by faith as being compltely sufficent on the believer's behalf? There is also the representation issue of the 1st Adam and 2nd Adam. If Adam did not represent all mankind in His one act of disobedience in the fullest sense (we all sinned in Adam), then the 2nd Adam's (Christ) obdiedence does not fully represent all those who are united to Christ. Romans 5 speaks of the 1st Adam to be a pattern of the one to come (2nd Adam or Jesus Christ). In what way does the 1st Adam set a pattern for the 2nd Adam in LDS teaching?

In regards to imputation, would the LDS church teach that the sins of the believers are imputed or credited to Christ's account in exchange for Christ's perfect righteousness being imputed or credited to the believer's account through the instrument of faith? Please explain why they would accept or deny this doctrine nicknamed the "great exchange" coined by CS Lewis. The best Bible verse for this great exchange in found in 2 Cor 5:21.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I believe 2 Cor 5:21 is the gospel of God in a nutshell. I believe John 3;16 is a great verse, but falls short of the great exchange of my sins transfered to Jesus' account in exchange of Christ' pefect righteousness credited to my account.

 

[simon kole]

The bible from the OT times shows that god unconditionally elects a people for himself. He does this election not because of anything they did to deserve it, but simply to show his freedom to elect.

Whenever the bible talks about election, you will find phrases like, '' I knew you'', ''predestined'', ''elected'', ''chose'', ''called out of'', ''separated''

In the case of Abraham, who was initially an idolater.

''You fathers lived of old beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor, and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the river and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many''

This ''taking'' of Abraham is election.

When god says he knows someone it also means he has elected them. God said:

'' Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?'' and he answers himself by saying ''No, for I have known him''

That does not mean that god is ignorant of everybody else on the planet it means that god has placed his special attention on Abraham.

Whoever god chooses or elects god gives birth to. He gave birth to the Israeli nation:

''Thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob he who FORMED you, O Israel''

In Isaiah 43 he says ''I am the lord, your holy one, the creator of Israel''

Moses calls them a chosen people.

Deut 14:1

''You are a people holy (meaning set apart) and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his own possession out of all the peoples on the face of the earth''

And god confirms Israel as his special nation by saying this to pharaoh

''Israel is my firstborn son, and I say to you, let my son go that he may serve me''

Why did god do this? Why did he elect/choose Israel as his special nation?

Deut 4:37
''Because he loved your fathers (Abraham) and chose their descendants after them''

The whole universe belongs to god, so god is not hedged in by a group of people. God did not elect Israel to demonstrate to pharaoh that he is another god in the universe and that the Israelites are his people and he has only rights to them. He has rights to everything, yet he delighted in loving Abraham and in loving Abraham he delighted to choose/elect/birth a nation that would make a name for himself on earth in and amongst the Egyptians and the rest of the world.

But just to show that god is not hedged in, boxed in by choosing Israel as a nation, he goes further and elects out of Israel a group of people.

Isaac and Ishmael were both sons of Abraham, but god elected Isaac, not Ishmael to make a name for himself. Both Esau and Jacob were born from Isaac’s seed, and yet god only chooses Jacob. And Jacob was the least likely candidate for election. His name means deceiver. He didn’t get chosen because he was in any way deserving of it, god chose him because he delights in his freedom to elect.

God is absolutely sovereign when it comes to who he elects, and he shows this by unconditional election. None of the people god chose had any merit to be chosen, it was completely unconditional.

Is there any indication that god has continued this trend in the NT? If so, who are the people god has elected?

yes, romans in particular, reveals this. the people whom god has elected are those who believe in jesus.

 

[Katzpur]

yes, romans in particular, reveals this. the people whom god has elected are those who believe in jesus.

So what about the ones who lived before Jesus did, or those who died before hearing about Him and His gospel? They're just out of luck?