Going topless, an equal rights issue

[Madhuri]

Really? I think it has, after all it's not considered nearly as scandalous to show off those things as it was say in the 50's, 60's, 70's and on. Sure it took time but it's become more and more accepted that it's okay for women to reveal these aspects of her body primarily because of movements of women who insisted on dressing that way regardless of what men or society in general thought. I don't see men going all crazy just because the tank top I wear on a hot summer's day shows off a little cleveage. That doesn't mean they don't but in truth it's up to the men to control their urges, not us to hide ourselves on the off chance that some men might start going crazy.

So women shouldn't take any responsibility for making men as horny as possible as often as possible?
My main objection is toward the sex crazed society. I think it causes a lot of problems. And it's only natural that the more body you show, the more thoughts of sex and lust will increase.

Most men can control themselves when they see women wearing tank tops. But it still causes arousal and from what I've been told by some guys, it very much leads to the culture of casual sex, cheating and all the problems associated with that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why does she not just take it to the next level by having a sex change. Then (s)he will have the same rights as a man.

Wow. Just....wow. I would imagine she is happy in her gender identity, and like most rational and logical people she realizes there really isn't that much of a difference between male and female breasts. It's just because women produce estrogen their breasts will usually develop, although there are many cases in which the breasts of men will develop as well, such as gynecomastia.
What I don't understand though, why can women not walk around topless while men who can fill a D-cup can?

 

[McBell]

It`s curious, but good I guess. I mean, it is good that at least we don`t bothe rthe breast feeders

I wish it were so.
Not long ago there was a parenting or mothers magazine that had a nursing baby on the front cover.
That picture caused a huge uproar with people calling it Porn....

 

[McBell]

So women shouldn't take any responsibility for making men as horny as possible as often as possible?

are you serious?
How is it the woman's fault that some men are unable to control themselves?

Next you will be saying it is the womans fault she got raped because she did not have enough clothes on....

 

[MoonWater]

So women shouldn't take any responsibility for making men as horny as possible as often as possible?
My main objection is toward the sex crazed society. I think it causes a lot of problems. And it's only natural that the more body you show, the more thoughts of sex and lust will increase.

Most men can control themselves when they see women wearing tank tops. But it still causes arousal and from what I've been told by some guys, it very much leads to the culture of casual sex, cheating and all the problems associated with that.

Why should we have to take responsibility for a man feeling horny. That's akin to arguing it's a woman's fault if she's sexually harassed because she happened to be wearing a tank top that exposed some cleavage. We have a sex crazed society because it's considered "dirty" and "something to keep hidden" which naturally hightens the allure and the curiosity. Besides if a guy gets horny for whatever reason that's for him to deal with and I really don't see why that in and of itself should be a problem or give cause for us to "cover up". If he uses his horniness as an excusse to harrass a woman then he's being a jerk and should be punished for it but that also doesn't mean we should need to cover up as a result. And I'd say the culture of casual sex has a lot to do with poor education about sex and the oversexualization of the media while cheating is a far more complicated issue but I imagine a lot of it harkens to mysoginistic perceptions. You honestly think instances of casual sex and cheating are going to go up simply because women are allowed to walk topless down the street just like a man is?

 

[MoonWater]

I wish it were so.
Not long ago there was a parenting or mothers magazine that had a nursing baby on the front cover.
That picture caused a huge uproar with people calling it Porn....

Seriously? oh my lord, how do you equate nursing a baby to porn? honestly some people...

 

[Madhuri]

are you serious?
How is it the woman's fault that some men are unable to control themselves?

Next you will be saying it is the womans fault she got raped because she did not have enough clothes on....

Can men control their thoughts? Are men really in control of how they feel and how seeing naked women makes them feel? Should a person's sexual nature just be ignored? I don't think that's fair to men.

 

[McBell]

Can men control their thoughts? Are men really in control of how they feel and how seeing naked women makes them feel? Should a person's sexual nature just be ignored? I don't think that's fair to men.

I can control my thoughts and my actions.
Does that mean I am somehow not a man?

I find it ironic how you seem to be saying that a mans sexual nature is to be pandered by women rejecting their sexual nature.

 

[McBell]

Seriously? oh my lord, how do you equate nursing a baby to porn? honestly some people...

Yes, seriously.
There was even a thread or two about it right here on RF.

I will see if I can find it.

 

[Madhuri]

Why should we have to take responsibility for a man feeling horny. That's akin to arguing it's a woman's fault if she's sexually harassed because she happened to be wearing a tank top that exposed some cleavage. We have a sex crazed society because it's considered "dirty" and "something to keep hidden" which naturally hightens the allure and the curiosity. Besides if a guy gets horny for whatever reason that's for him to deal with and I really don't see why that in and of itself should be a problem or give cause for us to "cover up". If he uses his horniness as an excusse to harrass a woman then he's being a jerk and should be punished for it but that also doesn't mean we should need to cover up as a result. And I'd say the culture of casual sex has a lot to do with poor education about sex and the oversexualization of the media while cheating is a far more complicated issue but I imagine a lot of it harkens to mysoginistic perceptions. You honestly think instances of casual sex and cheating are going to go up simply because women are allowed to walk topless down the street just like a man is?

Men can't help feeling horny. It's part of nature. And what stimulates a man is far more visual than what stimulates a woman. It seems logical that if a man is often stimulated, it will drive him to seek an outlet. I'm not talking about rape, I'm talking about our casual sex culture.

I actually do think that women can be really stupid. If I get harassed for showing off my body, dislike the harassment, but then continue to dress that way, I need to take some responsibility. Men shouldn't act that way, but the problem is that they often do. The way to change that mentality and behaviour is not, imo, to take even more clothes off. Something else needs to change before you take that step. Don't expect men to just change because 'they should'. Life doesn't work that way. And I really doubt that things would improve if women start going around topless.

As for men needing to deal with their own horniness, I don't think that's fair to men. Your saying that their nature is their problem only and we shouldn't care if we make it hard for them to control their nature. That's like placing bait in front of a starving person and expecting them to control their hunger.

My issue isn't with women showing their bodies. My issue is with how we think men should be perfect despite their lustful nature and just expect that life run smoothly. If guys already struggle with seeing what they see, the solution isn't to take off the rest of our clothing. Something else needs to happen first.

 

[Madhuri]

I can control my thoughts and my actions.
Does that mean I am somehow not a man?

I think it means you are among a few rather than the majority.
Are you saying that seeing breasts doesn't make you lustful?
If not then you are truly among a very few.

I find it ironic how you seem to be saying that a mans sexual nature is to be pandered by women rejecting their sexual nature.

What part of a woman's sexual nature is being rejected by not showing her breasts in public?

 

[McBell]

I think it means you are among a few rather than the majority.
Are you saying that seeing breasts doesn't make you lustful?
If not then you are truly among a very few.

No, seeing breasts does not make me lustful.
Perhaps being a bouncer at a strip club has something to do with my not getting a hard on every time I see a titty...

What part of a woman's sexual nature is being rejected by not showing her breasts in public?

Um...
Showing off their body?

 

[Madhuri]

Um...
Showing off their body?

I don't see showing off my body to the world as being part of my sexual nature.
Maybe nudity as an expression of sexuality is also only cultural.

 

[McBell]

I don't see showing off my body to the world as being part of my sexual nature.
Maybe nudity as an expression of sexuality is also only cultural.

Ah, so you dress in a manner that elicits harassment from men why?
Are you implying that you only dress that way because you are intentionally looking for the harassment from men?

I ask because you flat out said you know that the way you dress causes weak minded men to harass you.
Yet you do so any way.

One wonders if perhaps one reason (even if it is a teeny tiny itsy bitsy one) you dress in an antagonizing way is so that you can feel the sexual satisfaction you get from the weak minded men who harass you because they find you sexually attractive?

 

[MoonWater]

Men can't help feeling horny. It's part of nature. And what stimulates a man is far more visual than what stimulates a woman. It seems logical that if a man is often stimulated, it will drive him to seek an outlet. I'm not talking about rape, I'm talking about our casual sex culture.

I actually do think that women can be really stupid. If I get harassed for showing off my body, dislike the harassment, but then continue to dress that way, I need to take some responsibility. Men shouldn't act that way, but the problem is that they often do. The way to change that mentality and behaviour is not, imo, to take even more clothes off. Something else needs to change before you take that step. Don't expect men to just change because 'they should'. Life doesn't work that way. And I really doubt that things would improve if women start going around topless.

As for men needing to deal with their own horniness, I don't think that's fair to men. Your saying that their nature is their problem only and we shouldn't care if we make it hard for them to control their nature. That's like placing bait in front of a starving person and expecting them to control their hunger.

My issue isn't with women showing their bodies. My issue is with how we think men should be perfect despite their lustful nature and just expect that life run smoothly. If guys already struggle with seeing what they see, the solution isn't to take off the rest of our clothing. Something else needs to happen first.

Why does having a lustful nature make someone "imperfect"? Besides I don't expect men to be perfect but I do expect them to take responsibility for their actions just as women should take responsibility for theirs. If a man sexually harrasses a woman because of how she dresses then he needs to be held responsible for that. It is not up to women to take responsibility for them. Now if the woman was deliberatley goading them on and then cried harrasment that would be another story but that is not what we are discussing here. Besides society does not change by us standing still. If women had to wait until most of society was agreeable to the idea of us voting then we would still be waiting for the right to vote, because the views of society in general did not start to change until after we were given that right. Same with civil rights, same with same sex rights. Society will not change by us covering up and hiding away and waiting for it to happen, it;s through movements like this, through education, and through people in general getting a backbone and learning to stand up for themselves against the jerks of society that things change, not by sitting still and waiting.

 

[McBell]

Society will not change by us covering up and hiding away and waiting for it to happen, it;s through movements like this, through education, and through people in general getting a backbone and learning to stand up for themselves against the jerks of society that things change, not by sitting still and waiting.

If anything, remaining covered up will make it worse....

 

[Madhuri]

Ah, so you dress in a manner that elicits harassment from men why?
Are you implying that you only dress that way because you are intentionally looking for the harassment from men?

I ask because you flat out said you know that the way you dress causes weak minded men to harass you.
Yet you do so any way.

One wonders if perhaps one reason (even if it is a teeny tiny itsy bitsy one) you dress in an antagonizing way is so that you can feel the sexual satisfaction you get from the weak minded men who harass you because they find you sexually attractive?

During my teens I dressed to show off my body because all the other girls were doing it and they were getting all the male attention. Then as a young girl wearing short shorts and skirts and suddenly getting positive male attention is very flattering. As a girl you feel special and beautiful when you get that attention. But then after a little while you realise the attention is very fleeting, you are only being used, and because all the girls are looking the same, some are going to even further lengths to compete for that attention.

After having some of those realisations and over the last couple of years also talking to guys I've been involved with about their experiences with sexuality, I've got a quite a new perspective. My style is elegance and beauty, because looking beautiful is part of my sexual nature. But it's been a while since I felt comfortable showing off too much of my body.

So no, I don't dress that way. And it's because of the harassment.

 

[Madhuri]

Why does having a lustful nature make someone "imperfect"? Besides I don't expect men to be perfect but I do expect them to take responsibility for their actions just as women should take responsibility for theirs. If a man sexually harrasses a woman because of how she dresses then he needs to be held responsible for that. It is not up to women to take responsibility for them. Now if the woman was deliberatley goading them on and then cried harrasment that would be another story but that is not what we are discussing here. Besides society does not change by us standing still. If women had to wait until most of society was agreeable to the idea of us voting then we would still be waiting for the right to vote, because the views of society in general did not start to change until after we were given that right. Same with civil rights, same with same sex rights. Society will not change by us covering up and hiding away and waiting for it to happen, it;s through movements like this, through education, and through people in general getting a backbone and learning to stand up for themselves against the jerks of society that things change, not by sitting still and waiting.

I agree with what you are saying in general. I just don't believe that taking more clothes off is the smartest way to achieve what we actually want, which is freedom without the fear of harassment and disrespect.

 

[MoonWater]

I agree with what you are saying in general. I just don't believe that taking more clothes off is the smartest way to achieve what we actually want, which is freedom without the fear of harassment and disrespect.

Then we'll probably have to agree to disagree here. Though I would add that it's not just about getting that freedom without fear of harrasment but about freedom in general. For me personally I favor it primarily because I feel it would help remove a lot of the stigma around public breast feeding, or at the very least allow for greater protection for women who choose to breast feed in public because it would give these women a definitive, straight forward, legal recourse to turn to if the were to be harrassed or kicked out of a public place for breast feeding their child.

 

[McBell]

So no, I don't dress that way. And it's because of the harassment.

My apologies.
I misread post #30.