Good vs Evil

[connermt]

The majority of believers say the devil/satan/whatever you want to call it is evil and god is good.
Why?
Other than the bible being used to gleam that "fact" out of nothingness, where have you seen that the devil is evil and god is good?
How do you know that god is the deciever and is actually the evil one, paingint the devil as evil?
God said not to eat from the tree of knowledge while the devil said to do it. What knowledge was god trying to hide in a tree? Some would say it was the knowledge that evil would mean death, but death was a punishment from god for eating from a tree it had to know Adam and Eve would eat from. Besides, god placed the tree there and allowed the devil to convince them to eat from it. That sounds pretty sneaky, which is evil in of itself.
beyond that, if god was before anything, this includes being before evil. Thus, evil had to come from god.
So how do you know, as a believer, that you aren't being deceived by god into thinking it's good while the devil isn't?
Or are you just hoping for "the best" outcome once you die?

 

[Student of X]

'All these forms of the Dark Night—the “Absence of God,” the sense of sin, the dark ecstasy, the loss of the self’s old passion, peace, and joy, and its apparent relapse to lower spiritual and mental levels—are considered by the mystics themselves to constitute aspects or parts of one and the same process: the final purification of the will or stronghold of personality, that it may be merged without any reserve “in God where it was first.”

The function of this episode of the Mystic Way is to cure the soul of the innate tendency to seek and rest in spiritual joys; to confuse Reality with the joy given by the contemplation of Reality. It is the completion of that ordering of disordered loves, that trans-valuation of values, which the Way of Purgation began. The ascending self must leave these childish satisfactions; make its love absolutely disinterested, strong, and courageous, abolish all taint of spiritual gluttony.

A total abandonment of the individualistic standpoint, of that trivial and egotistic quest of personal satisfaction which thwarts the great movement of the Flowing Light, is the supreme condition of man’s participation in Reality. Thus is true not only of the complete participation which is possible to the great mystic, but of those unselfish labours in which the initiates of science or of art become to the Eternal Goodness “what his own hand is to a man.”

“Think not,” says Tauler, “that God will be always caressing His children, or shine upon their head, or kindle their hearts as He does at the first. He does so only to lure us to Himself, as the falconer lures the falcon with its gay hood. . . . We must stir up and rouse ourselves and be content to leave off learning, and no more enjoy feeling and warmth, and must now serve the Lord with strenuous industry and at our own cost.”

This manly view of the Dark Night, as a growth in responsibility—an episode of character-building—in which, as “The Mirror of Simple Souls” has it, “the soul leaves that pride and play wherein it was full gladsome and jolly,” is characteristic of the German mystics. We find it again in Suso, to whom the angel of his tribulation gave no sentimental consolations; but only the stern command, “Viriliter agite ”—“Be a man!” “Then first,” says Tauler again, “do we attain to the fullness of God’s love as His children, when it is no longer happiness or misery, prosperity or adversity, that draws us to Him or keeps us back from Him. What we should then experience none can utter; but it would be something far better than when we were burning with the first flame of love, and had great emotion, but less true submission.”'

Mysticism: Part Two: The Mystic Way: IX. The Dark Night of the Soul

 

[Levite]

The majority of believers say the devil/satan/whatever you want to call it is evil and god is good.
Why?
Other than the bible being used to gleam that "fact" out of nothingness, where have you seen that the devil is evil and god is good?
How do you know that god is the deciever and is actually the evil one, paingint the devil as evil?
God said not to eat from the tree of knowledge while the devil said to do it. What knowledge was god trying to hide in a tree? Some would say it was the knowledge that evil would mean death, but death was a punishment from god for eating from a tree it had to know Adam and Eve would eat from. Besides, god placed the tree there and allowed the devil to convince them to eat from it. That sounds pretty sneaky, which is evil in of itself.
beyond that, if god was before anything, this includes being before evil. Thus, evil had to come from god.
So how do you know, as a believer, that you aren't being deceived by god into thinking it's good while the devil isn't?
Or are you just hoping for "the best" outcome once you die?

There is no devil.

Good and evil both proceed from God: "I form light and I create darkness, make peace and create evil: I YHVH do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

 

[connermt]

There is no devil.

Good and evil both proceed from God: "I form light and I create darkness, make peace and create evil: I YHVH do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Some, for some reason, don't accept this verse. But thanks for providing it as I couldn't remember where I read it.
So is the devil a scapegoat?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is no devil.

Good and evil both proceed from God: "I form light and I create darkness, make peace and create evil: I YHVH do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Not sure that 'evil' (a judgement) is the best translation here.

 

[1137]

The divine source / god / the all / Spirit / whatever you want to call it is balanced and perfect. (Using the term God), God is not good and Satan evil. God would be both good and evil, and everything in between.

 

[Levite]

Not sure that 'evil' (a judgement) is the best translation here.

Yeah, I think if I were going to render for the poetic spirit of the verse rather than for pure literal translation, I would want to render ra "chaos," and shalom "order."

But, technically, it does say ra, and though I agree there's room to debate on the pshat (face value) meaning of the text, I think, on drash/remez (exegetical/homiletical) levels, it really helps theologically to render the word as "evil."

 

[SaintAugustine]

Evil is the lack or the absence of good.

Jack the Ripper is good with a knife.
Jack the Ripper has evil regard for some women.
Jack the Ripper has evil regard for life.

you can see that the scales can be usued to tip good...and I suppose vice a versa.

 

[connermt]

Evil is the lack or the absence of good.

Jack the Ripper is good with a knife.
Jack the Ripper has evil regard for some women.
Jack the Ripper has evil regard for life.

you can see that the scales can be usued to tip good...and I suppose vice a versa.

Jack was good, for what he wanted for himself. He obviously didn't do it because he didn't LIKE doing it. He did it because it made him feel GOOD.
Hitler likely didn't kill thousands of people because he wanted to be evil, but because he thought he was doing the right (good) thing.
So evil isn't the absence of good, but the evidence of how each individual sees it.

 

[arthra]

connermt wrote:

"....evil had to come from god.
So how do you know, as a believer, that you aren't being deceived by god into thinking it's good while the devil isn't?
Or are you just hoping for "the best" outcome once you die?"

.......................

Regarding "evil" I've found the following excerpts in the Baha'i Writings:

"If carried to excess, civilization will prove as prolific a source of evil as it had been of goodness when kept within the restraints of moderation."

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 342


"The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 264


"Evil is non-existent; it is the absence of good; sickness is the loss of health; poverty the lack of riches."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 78


"Evil does not
intrude itself upon the divine scheme from some outside
source; it falls within the divine scheme. From the first, it
is foreseen and aforedoomed. It represents an original lack,
a shortcoming, which man has to rise out of and to outgrow."

~ George Townshend, The Heart of the Gospel, p. 21

 

[tree]

I think what is good and evil is completely subjective and relative to the culture and times we live in. For example some of the actions of religious figures during the Spanish inquisition would have been looked at as good to them and morally sanctioned by god, but today the same people would be seen as evil.

 

[SaintAugustine]

I disagree..I think there is an absolute moral compass.
I am not saying all people should react to things or feel the same way.
but for a case of subjective morality gone astray...see Germany 1933 to 1945.
I think there are some basic guidelines for human existence, without sounding cliche...The Ten Commandments, Love thy Neighbor...fulfill bout 90 percent of that code.