Good works are better than faith alone.

[Sleeppy]

Primarily, this is an ethical question. But, it contains a challenge to every believer in religion: When your religion does evil deeds, how do you continue to believe in it? Should we not judge the tree by its fruit? Child rape: bad; therefor, Catholicism: bad. Is this not logical?

That's like bombing an entire country because someone was being raped somewhere in it. Not very logical at all.

 

[punkdbass]

so what about someone(say a tribesman in the amazon) who knows nothing of jesus or our gods,but lives his life as a good person,never does harm to anyone only good,do you think any god would reject him because he doesnt believe.

I believe if there is a "heaven", that good humanists and the righteous of all faiths with have a place there. So in other words, I believe God's primary demand of us is ethical behavior, rather than faith related.

I agree.

Too bad they're so hard to find my neck of the woods.

Same here

 

[Revoltingest]

No. The bible states that if a person has never heard doctrine, or heard of Jesus, they have their own moral law written on their hearts and they will be judged by that. I posted that passage a few posts ago.

Does it deal with those of us who heard the message from charlatans & found it loopy?
I think we'd deserve a pass on the eternal lake of fire here.



Does anyone else smell sulfur?
It's been getting stronger lately.

 

[Kathryn]

Does it deal with those of us who heard the message from charlatans & found it loopy?
I think we'd deserve a pass on the eternal lake of fire here.



Does anyone else smell sulfur?
It's been getting stronger lately.

That's between you and God - I'm staying out of it.

 

[ChristineES]

Thank goodness there are a lot of Christians out there who are not Baptist and who don't believe this.

I am a Baptist and I don't believe that.

 

[Kathryn]

I am a Baptist and I don't believe that.

Oh, good - my bad - thank goodness there are a whole lot of Christians, including some Baptists, who don't believe that!

 

[BruceDLimber]

From the Baha'i scriptures:

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws [faith], Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world [works]. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.“

—The Book of Laws, p. 19

Peace,

Bruce

 

[idea]

A very simple point, and one that is difficult to refute through rational argumentation. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. What we intend matters very little; it is what we do that counts.

I think thoughts lead to actions, intentions are where works start - yes, works are better than thoughts, but good thoughts are good too....

Primarily, this is an ethical question. But, it contains a challenge to every believer in religion: When your religion does evil deeds, how do you continue to believe in it? Should we not judge the tree by its fruit? Child rape: bad; therefor, Catholicism: bad. Is this not logical?

All religious faiths are made up of imperfect people, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater and all that. yes, fruits are a good way to judge - and I think most religious organizations have done a lot of good - charities etc. etc.

Atheism also faces the same challenge. It is not as if atheism is sanctified by the overwhelming evidence of its "good deeds." It seems to me that the real progress in history has not been accomplished by "secular-progressives," but by religious fanatics: the role of Calvinism in the development of democracy, for example. Would there be an even halfway functioning parliament in Britain, if not for Cromwell? Would the USA have ever even approached the ideals of republican freedom, if not for the original puritan settlers?

yes, definitely dark stains within the secularist movement...
10 People Who Give Atheism a Bad*Name

and I agree with you that the freedom of this country primarily came from those who wished to be ruled by God rather than by a King... (God save the King, vs. God is our King - a very telling re-write to that song...)

Is there a new one of these out?
http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/files/2011/08/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf

just a little "by their fruits" plug - the Mormons actually did pretty well in the above study...

"As regards currently married adults, the Mormons and Baptists have the highest proportions with 68 and 60 percent respectively, reflecting the emphasis on family values in these traditions...."pg 15

"One final way to measure commitment to “traditional or normative family values” is to create a combined index of the proportions divorced and cohabiting, whereby those tradition that score lowest are the most familial. The traditions with the lowest percentages on this index are Mormons (11%), Jews (13%) and the Protestant Denominations (13%). Each of these traditions is relatively small in terms of numbers and it might be expected that conformity with religious and social norms is easier to maintain in a smaller group than a larger one."

not to brag or anything, but if happy loving families are a good fruit, our little flock does well

 

[Pragmatist]

Works are the outward manifestation of inner faith.

I can agree with that. The works are the visible part, and can be directly observed by a third party. The faith that inspires or motivates, that part is invisible, and therefore must be inferred. We can never directly know what's in another person's heart.

I believe that every human has a "god," so to speak. It doesn't necessarily have to be an invisible man in the sky. Look at the greedy businessman who cheats his customers and grinds his workers into poverty. He may go to church every week, but who does he actually serve: God or Mammon?

Everyone has a god, and they serve that god faithfully. It is impossible to hide your faith, it shines through in every act. Your entire conduct of life is inexorably determined by this "inner religion." It doesn't matter what faith you confess with your mouth; it doesn't even matter what you yourself consciously believe.

"As much virtue as there is, so much appears; as much goodness as there is, so much reverence it commands." I don't believe that there is much goodness in organized religion, because it doesn't appear. The reverence that it commands seems forced; it doesn't come from the heart; people are just going through the motions. They confess all the while, more loudly than ever before, that they believe these doctrines to be literally true, but their works show something else.

I like to call this bad faith. The sure sign of bad faith is when, unlike the Amish, you are no longer satisfied with the control of your own behavior, but now expect others to conform. To use a simple example: why the blue laws? If you think it is sinful to drink on Sunday, don't drink on Sunday. Why do you have to force others to abstain? Worry about your own salvation, and then let everyone else go to hell. When you try to force others, it shows you have a nagging doubt. The Amish show by their conduct that they have purified themselves of these corrupting doubts.

It reminds me of the Jews of old, as Paul describes them, who try to force others to be circumcised. What does that prove? Galatians 6: "Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh."

Every time a believer tries to make you conform to their program, you can rest assured that they merely want to "glory in your flesh," because their own faith is so weak.