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Gospel of Thomas

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Primary Sources - Gospel Of Thomas | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

What do we think here? Could it be that the Gospel of Thomas is a long lost collection of Jesus' private teachings? Or is it a kind of fake that misrepresents his teachings?

I'm just wondering what you all think about it.
IMO, this "gospel " is uninspired apocrypha that has no place in the Bible. There are many such tall tales that are not part of the "All Scripture...inspired by God." (2 Timothy 3:16)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
What do we think here? Could it be that the Gospel of Thomas is a long lost collection of Jesus' private teachings? Or is it a kind of fake that misrepresents his teachings?
I think it unfortunate that some see the above as the only viable alternatives.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
IMO, this "gospel " is uninspired apocrypha that has no place in the Bible. There are many such tall tales that are not part of the "All Scripture...inspired by God." (2 Timothy 3:16)
Except that the quote refers to the Torah, not the "N.T." that hadn't yet been written. Even the Jewish canon hadn't been solidified until decades after Jesus.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The "canon" was decided by Church Councils and is in fact arbitrary. The Gospel of Thomas is just as valid/invalid as anything that made it into the official Bible.
Please demonstrate that the canonization process was arbitrary and entirely lacking in reasonable selection criteria.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
The "canon" was decided by Church Councils and is in fact arbitrary. The Gospel of Thomas is just as valid/invalid as anything that made it into the official Bible.

That's pretty close to what I'm thinking.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
"Is {A} [Y] or [Z]?" clearly inferred as much.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. Next time I ask a question for discussion I'll either list every possible answer for the question or I won't throw out any answers to get people started.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Primary Sources - Gospel Of Thomas | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

What do we think here? Could it be that the Gospel of Thomas is a long lost collection of Jesus' private teachings? Or is it a kind of fake that misrepresents his teachings?

I'm just wondering what you all think about it.
Its just one of the several slightly different versions of the Early christian church and its teachings that were eventually wiped out when they canonized everything with "close enough" versions.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
Its just one of the several slightly different versions of the Early christian church and its teachings that were eventually wiped out when they canonized everything with "close enough" versions.
I don't quite understand.
What do you mean close enough versions?
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I don't quite understand.
What do you mean close enough versions?
You see when the church started to canonize the teachings it is because there were several conflicting points in several different books of the bible. One says "this" and others say "that". So they created a cannon they believed to be the legitimate teachings from god and attempted to cross examine the different works to find books that were in line with each other. The logic is that if they all matched then they must be the correct uncorrupted versions of the truth. So Matt, Mark, Luke and John were all more or less the same (still had a few differences and minor conflicts) but close enough to be "canonized" together without much upset. However one couldn't claim that they were irrefutable proof if they also included other books such as the Gospel of Thomas which had glaring contradictions.
He only mentioned 3 disciples. He never mentioned Jesus's baptism. He didn't mention the resurrection. He didn't mention the majority (if any) of the miracles. It was highly "gnostic" in its messages. It talked openly of obtaining the "secret knowledge" of god.

Gnosticism was a semi-radical sect of early Christianity that the main church did not agree with and the primary reason other than the fact that pretty much all of the mystical and magical god like acts of Jesus was absent it also had a gnostic feel.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
It makes my mystic senses tingle :D I think it's an interesting text, more than the ones that are in the NT Canon.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
As far as reacting to the religious or spiritual content of the Gospel of Thomas, I have never personally been as drawn to it as I have (for example) the Sermon on the Mount, or the Johannine tradition. Although I think something like half of the sayings are at least quite close to sayings found also in the canonical gospels. I don't personally have any objection to the Gospel of Thomas, content-wise. The things that I find worthwhile about contemplating it as an early Christian text are:

- As evidence of the fluid, varied, and chaotic nature of the growth of early Christian belief, and what that has to say about "biblical authority", or defining what is and is not "Christian" teaching. Discussions about these various streams of thought (c.f. the OYC intro to the N.T. course) should change how Christians think about Christian dogmatics, in a helpful and less fundamentalist way. For example in the Open Yale lectures there are comparisons made between the pastoral Pauline epistles and the viewpoint of the gospel of Paul and Thecla, or between the viewpoint of the gospel authors. The Gospel of Thomas fits into the same point. It's a point that I think a lot of modern Christians need to become more aware of.

- As evidence against an excessively literalistic hermeneutic of Christian sacred texts, and as a reminder that the mode of reading texts as "histories" in a modern sense doesn't necessarily best reflect traditional readings. The Gospel of Thomas makes no attempt at giving a history, it's a collection of sayings that are obviously expected to be read in a more nuanced and symbolic way. The authors obviously intend a more "spiritualized" reading. Again I think this is a point that Christians need to hear more and take into account in their approach to Christian tradition and the Bible.

Selection criteria, reasonable or not, are still arbitrary and subjective.

I think that any appreciation for the history of Christianity as a religion makes clear that any idea of the canon of the Christian Bible as something divinely established is untenable, and if, for the canon to be "non-arbitrary" or "objective" requires an absolute ground, then clearly that can't be established. However, to me, the word "arbitrary" has this connotation of something being chosen on a whim, or without consideration, and I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment of the history either. I think it's undeniable that the formation of the canon was enacted following the (subjective) opinions of very human Christians, and especially church leaders in the 4th century. To the best of my knowledge though, their decisions seem to reflect both a consideration for what texts were already widely in use and valued among the Christian churches, as well as some attempts at "objective" criteria, even though those criteria were obviously also evaluated subjectively. The primary criteria expressed by church leaders was basically the idea of apostolic authority. Texts thought to have been authored by apostles or by close disciples of the apostles were favored.

Of course the irony is we now know that their evaluation of authorship was almost certainly wrong in most cases, which is yet another point to be added about why Christians shouldn't be too dogmatic about the nature of canon, but I think sometimes views of the formation of the Bible take on this gloss wherein Constantine is the primary villain, and the leaders of the churches acted solely out of some political machination or other, and that doesn't seem like a reasonable portrayal of events either. Mostly I think the dichotomy arises from presuppositions about the nature of biblical authority that overly fundamentalistic, where either the text is dictated and established from on High, or else it is entirely arbitrary, subjective, and (as some will infer, although this is not necessarily your implication) valueless. Rather, when I read the writings of ancient Christian theologians concerned with the nature of scripture and its interpretation, i see mostly a more pragmatic concern. They favored texts that they felt were spiritually richer, but also they valued the tradition that asserted apostolic authority for those texts and the collective opinion of the churches. But the seat of authority (and not necessarily an absolute authority) for them was the church itself, as a living tradition, rather than it being a question of tricking everyone into thinking that one specific collection of texts was divinely ordained as the one and only true Bible.

Anyway, to me, what I hope is that these considerations lead Christians towards a self-understanding that is less based on absolutizing a doctrinal orthodoxy in a fundamentalist way, where everyone else is a heretic, and more towards a self-understanding that accepts with humility the provisionality and humanness of all of our knowledge, or the value of texts, or the authority of institutions, but sees a Christian life as more a matter of seeking to express our lives in a Christ-like way, in love, gentleness, forgiveness, and etc. All the elements of Christian life which are symbolized by the "Spirit" in the N.T. texts, which gives life, while the "letter" gives death, so to speak. The historical realities about the formation of the canon, or an awareness of the wide breadth of "Christian" belief throughout history, should point towards the fact that certain views about doctrinal orthodoxy are impossible to sustain.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
None of the
existing church canons include the gospel of Thomas, nor any of the other Gnostic texts.
However they are studied and much is written about them.

one of the criterion for inclusion in the original bible canon, was that they had a connection or were written by the apostles.
We now know that none of the Gospels that were chosen have this proven difenitive link.

The gospels of Thomas and Mary are often discussed on this forum and many of us have read them.
They probably have as much to recommend them as some of those that were included, however they do not fit well with much of the established dogma. So their inclusion any time soon is very unlikely.

No one is seriously suggesting that they are in any way bogus as they are extremely well documented.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Its just one of the several slightly different versions of the Early christian church and its teachings that were eventually wiped out when they canonized everything with "close enough" versions.
According to the Anglican theologian (Sir) William Barclay, there were roughly a thousand books to choose from for the Christian scriptures, and about two thousand or so for the Jewish scriptures.

BTW, I read more than one theologian who felt that the book "Clement I" should have been selected to be in the Christian canon.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
According to the Anglican theologian (Sir) William Barclay, there were roughly a thousand books to choose from for the Christian scriptures, and about two thousand or so for the Jewish scriptures.

BTW, I read more than one theologian who felt that the book "Clement I" should have been selected to be in the Christian canon.
Indeed. Don't forget there was political agenda as well. I forget his name but the actual cannization of the bible came after someone else started to make their own "cannon" that was different than the regular christian Cannon. All of this of course several years after the founding of christianity.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Indeed. Don't forget there was political agenda as well. I forget his name but the actual cannization of the bible came after someone else started to make their own "cannon" that was different than the regular christian Cannon. All of this of course several years after the founding of christianity.
Wow, that's the first time I've seen roughly 300 years being referred to as "several years". ;)

But you are correct as there were competing groups, with the largest being the Gnostics, and they had their own scriptures that they said were the authentic ones. And even the canon that was selected was done with quite some argument, especially over the books of Revelations (the "millennial reign" caused a problem) and Hebrews (author?), as well as books we call the "Apocrypha" (undecided as to whether they should or shouldn't be included, so that decision was put off).
 
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