Grandpa did it, you pay for it

[Dan4reason]

Fair enough. I can't actually find any info about it online. Better just forget I even mentioned it

Well, I am not here to debate Hinduism. It would be far harder anyway.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Dan4reason]

I agree whole-heartedly.
The biblical god is supposedly this all-knowing and loving god.
If that is so, why didn't he stop all the evil in the world before it started?
Why did he allow innocent people to suffer unspeakable things?

You do bring something up. Why doesn't God make people who will be perfect without violating free will? He can do anything right?

 

[Storm]

You do bring something up. Why doesn't God make people who will be perfect without violating free will? He can do anything right?

If your only choice is Christianity, do you have religious freedom? After all, there are over 30,000 choices.

 

[Dan4reason]

If your only choice is Christianity, do you have religious freedom? After all, there are over 30,000 choices.

You make a good point. I am so glad that the God of the bible probably doesn't exist.

In defense of God, there seem to be about a half-million versions of Christianity so we still have a lot of options!

 

[Reptillian]

Don't criticize God! He made you. He just gets mad really easily. At least he came back as Jesus and fixed up most of his mistakes.

Just think, if Moses just kept his homophobic opinions to himself, our society may not have the problems it has with gays and lesbians. We could have never heard nonsense like "God hates ****."

"An honest God is the noblest work of man" - Robert Green Ingersoll

I certainly admire Jesus and his teachings. If God were to come down to Earth and live as a human being, I think Jesus would be a good representation. If all it took to be a Christian was follow Jesus' moral teachings, (turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, golden rule, forgiveness, compassion, etc) I'd probably consider myself to be one.

you hasten to obey that serpent

"If the account given in Genesis is really true, ought we not, after all, to thank this serpent? He was the first schoolmaster, the first advocate of learning, the first enemy of ignorance, the first to whisper in human ears the sacred word liberty." - Robert Green Ingersoll

 

[VenatorAnima]

You do bring up a point. Why doesn't God make people who will be perfect without violating free will? He can do anything right?

Exactly!

 

[Dan4reason]

"An honest God is the noblest work of man" - Robert Green Ingersoll

I certainly admire Jesus and his teachings. If God were to come down to Earth and live as a human being, I think Jesus would be a good representation. If all it took to be a Christian was follow Jesus' moral teachings, (turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, golden rule, forgiveness, compassion, etc) I'd probably consider myself to be one.

Some of Jesus' teachings are a big over-idealistic, but they were a huge improvement over when the world was like back then and what it is today, assuming he did exist in the first place. If there was actually a Jesus, I wonder what he was really like. I wonder what he really did.

 

[Reptillian]

Some of Jesus' teachings are a big over-idealistic, but they were a huge improvement over when the world was like back then and what it is today, assuming he did exist in the first place. If there was actually a Jesus, I wonder what he was really like. I wonder what he really did.

I wonder too, I bet historical Jesus was an interesting individual.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

This thread is about God's practice of punishing 3 or 4 generations for the sins of their ancestors. There are several bible verses which directly express God's desire to harm children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren for some of the personal sins of their parents. Later on in the bible, God seems to have had a change of heart and decided to punish people for their own crimes (isn't that good of him). I will provide some scriptural support for my statements.

Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

Not only does this philosophy display absolute injustice because it supports punishing future generations for crimes they did not commit, but this statement displays God's religious bigotry. This twisted philosophy certainly could not have come out of the mind of an omni-benevolent being so the question is, whose mind did it come out of? The easy answer is that this philosophy was simply made up by a bunch of bronze age barbarians. People were less than civilized back then.

I see it as more of a warning then a religious bigotry. A man is most likely not going to do something knowing that his children will most likely suffer from his actions. This is just a tool to keep them well behave. But more importantly Justice and injustice doesn't exist since Justice is just revenge justified.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I would suggest That though it is clear that sins are not transferable. There is some truth in the concept and outcomes.

Take the worlds financial situation today as an example.
What the present generation has done will take several generations to undo, and even then things will never return to what they were.

What these passages teach, is that we should take care what we do, as it may have a lasting detrimental effect on others.

At a family level, what one member does can effect the lives of everyone else, they can even end up in poverty for several generations, because of the stupidity of one.

Many OT writings can be interpreted to have a real meaning today.

 

[Dan4reason]

I see it as more of a warning then a religious bigotry. A man is most likely not going to do something knowing that his children will most likely suffer from his actions. This is just a tool to keep them well behave. But more importantly Justice and injustice doesn't exist since Justice is just revenge justified.

Punishing a person for his religious beliefs is religious bigotry.

Are you trying to justify punishing punishing people for the crimes of another? Is this something an omnipotent, omni-benevolent being would and needs to do? Is this something a justice compassionate God would do? Is this something a God would later on in the bible said that people will be punished for their own sins would do? I will be giving an example of this sort of 6th century style of justice below.

Farmer Bob just burned down my barn. I am very angry at farmer Bob and want to take it take it out on him. Unfortunately farmer Bob has just left town. I am so angry, I will just take it out on the brother of farmer Bob, Ricky. I get a mob together and Rick'y house is now in flames. Justice has been done!

 

[Dan4reason]

I would suggest That though it is clear that sins are not transferable. There is some truth in the concept and outcomes.

Take the worlds financial situation today as an example.
What the present generation has done will take several generations to undo, and even then things will never return to what they were.

What these passages teach, is that we should take care what we do, as it may have a lasting detrimental effect on others.

At a family level, what one member does can effect the lives of everyone else, they can even end up in poverty for several generations, because of the stupidity of one.

Many OT writings can be interpreted to have a real meaning today.

Yes, many like to bend OT verses as much as possible to fit their ideals. Many people do not change their ideas to fit the bible's, the change the bible's ideas to fit theirs. People do not do this because they are dishonest but because they must be able to believe in the bible and also be civilized.

The bible verses is very very clear about what God is saying. Take these verses.

Exodus 34

5Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

Notice what this verse says.

he PUNISHES the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.

There is no evidence that God is simply allowing the consequences of the misdeeds of your great-grandparents to adversely affect your life. God is PUNISHING you for their misdeeds.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Are you trying to justify punishing punishing people for the crimes of another? Is this something an omnipotent, omni-benevolent being would and needs to do? Is this something a justice compassionate God would do? Is this something a God would later on in the bible said that people will be punished for their own sins would do? I will be giving an example of this sort of 6th century style of justice below.

I'm not trying to justify anyting, I'm just looking at it from a different point of view.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Farmer Bob just burned down my barn. I am very angry at farmer Bob and want to take it take it out on him. Unfortunately farmer Bob has just left town. I am so angry, I will just take it out on the brother of farmer Bob, Ricky. I get a mob together and Rick'y house is now in flames. Justice has been done!

Your proving my point. There is no such thing as Justice, there is only revenge.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The bible verses is very very clear about what God is saying. Take these verses.

Exodus 34

5Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”
quote]

I do not find this as clear at all
who is speaking?
A commentator says" Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming,"

Now who was doing the Proclaiming God or Moses....?

Who ever it was proclaimed ....
“The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

Does that sound like God speaking to you? or is it a commentary on what God said ?
I suspect it is a commentary in two parts....

“The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.

Which comments on the nature of God

And then so they that they should not take God's mercy for granted, because the Jews believed God would punish, he added ....

Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

Those words are clearly not a quote from God, But a comment about God.

This interpretation could fit quite well with the way the Jews understand their Bible.

Christians reinvented how they should understand Biblical texts, by supposing them to be the unaltered word of God.

 

[Dan4reason]

I'm not trying to justify anyting, I'm just looking at it from a different point of view.

Ok. That fine.

 

[Dan4reason]

Your proving my point. There is no such thing as Justice, there is only revenge.

I did not really mean that revenge is justice. I was trying to show how you can confuse revenge with justice.

I agree that justice is only a form of revenge. When a policeman makes a speeder pay a fine, this is a form of doing harm to the harmful. I will argue though that justice in its ideal form and revenge have different goals in mind. The point of revenge is to just get back. The point of justice is to fix or stop wrongful actions. Sometimes I sense that some punishment are both just and vengeful.

What I am arguing is that even though justice and revenge are visibly the same, they are different if you analyse why they are being done.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

And I thought that this thread would be about the national debt.

 

[Dan4reason]

I do not find this as clear at all
who is speaking?
A commentator says" Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming,"

Now who was doing the Proclaiming God or Moses....?

Who ever it was proclaimed ....
“The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

Does that sound like God speaking to you? or is it a commentary on what God said ?
I suspect it is a commentary in two parts....

“The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.

Which comments on the nature of God

And then so they that they should not take God's mercy for granted, because the Jews believed God would punish, he added ....

Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

Those words are clearly not a quote from God, But a comment about God.

This interpretation could fit quite well with the way the Jews understand their Bible.

Christians reinvented how they should understand Biblical texts, by supposing them to be the unaltered word of God.

You make a good point. I can just imagine God coming before Moses praising himself in third person and making God appear narcissistic indeed!

Of course the though that God demands that his imperfect creations worship him also appears modesty self-centered.

You seem to believe that the bible is not the word of God but it the word of people interpreting God. In this case you seem to think that the Jews got it wrong. For what reason do you think so?

How can you explain Genesis ch. 20?

1 And God spoke all these words: 2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.



This is supposedly God himself talking normally just like a God word. Is this a commentator too with a fallacious story of God?

 

[ellenjanuary]

As cultures mature, the God they create matures.

Never was about god and man, it was always about unity and division. Unification brings science and technology where seven billion can debate religion in a garden with a natural carring capacty for 1.6 biliion. Division inspires creative competition and innovation. Sin is nonsense talk from superstitious primitives.

As for the OP, I put it to the scientific method and proved that hell does not exist; but nobody listens to the fool.